You RFN, 2012

[Ibby]

Originally Posted by Aliantha

Again, I honestly mean no offence to you. I don't really care what your sexuality is. I don't care what anyone's sexuality is. I really just want to be able to have a discourse without having to worry about who I called a he when I should have called him a she or whatever. if I'm talking to you, then 'you' are what you are, and what I address you as is of no consequence and has no bearing on what you see yourself as. The only person who really has to be happy about you is you. Everyone else can go get knotted.

This is my point - I find the notion that it's unreasonable to expect people to make an effort to properly gender me to be flat out nasty. I fundamentally disagree with your worldview on gender. And because I'm part of the trans* community, that disagreement takes on a little more weight, because when you treat gender that way, it fundamentally erases me and my identity, and leaves the door open for a lot of really bad things. I don't care if you think i'm bitchy or taking it too far - I'm going to make an effort to educate the cellar as to WHY the things we say can be taken as offensive, HOW our language makes it extremely easy to erase the trans* community, etc. It doesn't mean i'm personally bent out of shape about it. It means I think it's a fundamental human and civil rights issue to talk about these things, and to stand up against language I think is damaging.

[BigV]

Originally Posted by Ibram

And I think that defining things that way, especially to my face, would, coming from a stranger, strike me as offensive. Because it's Shel, and I like Shel and fundamentally believe the best about him, I know that's not what he's trying to say. I'm just trying to point out how comments like that can be hurtful, regardless of intent. I'm not sore or trying to be contrarian, I'm just saying that even if Shel is only interested in people with dicks, using that sort of language and talking about identity, gender, sex, and sexuality in those terms is fraught with peril and it is quite easy to be accidentally hurtful or to, without any malice, without even being aware of it, say things that can feel exclusionary, binarist, and sex-essentialist to those on the non-cisgendered side of things.

Not so very long ago, "i don't mind gay people, I just don't want them rubbing it in my face", or any other variant of the "as long as they don't do it around me" argument, would have been a fairly progressive point of view. But now, to most people, it sounds dated and prejudicial - like it assumes that, while straight people keep sex private, gay people are likely to take it too far, or do it in public, or try to coerce uninterested parties into participation. I really hope that one of these days, comparing a sensitivity to gender issues to being high will sound equally dated. And even if you think I'm being ridiculous by standing up for them, I'm going to KEEP being vocal about defending my identity and on trans* issues that I think aren't being adequately represented here. You can put me on the loony fringe if you like, but I at least want to make the "fringe", progressive, queer, activist trans* point of view heard. The same way one oversensitive nigger ain't gonna keep everyone from saying "black", I don't expect one oversensitive tranny to keep you guys from straying into what i consider vaguely offensive, trans*-erasive, sexist commentary. I know the Cellar is going to be a lot more accepting and positive than most communities. But I also know there's a pretty strong anti-political-correctness sentiment around here, and I'm not gonna go off in tears just because a few people think I take my problems with the genderification and the politicization of language that most people take for granted overly seriously.

Lots of "I" language here. Completely legitimate, and wonderful to hear. The last one, made a little bigger, is a bigger, stronger statement. Huzzah!

Originally Posted by Ibram

This is my point - I find the notion that it's unreasonable to expect people to make an effort to properly gender me to be flat out nasty. I fundamentally disagree with your worldview on gender. And because I'm part of the trans* community, that disagreement takes on a little more weight, because when you treat gender that way, it fundamentally erases me and my identity, and leaves the door open for a lot of really bad things. I don't care if you think i'm bitchy or taking it too far - I'm going to make an effort to educate the cellar as to WHY the things we say can be taken as offensive, HOW our language makes it extremely easy to erase the trans* community, etc. It doesn't mean i'm personally bent out of shape about it. It means I think it's a fundamental human and civil rights issue to talk about these things, and to stand up against language I think is damaging.

More "I" language here, until you make what is in my opinion, a serious mistake, flagged in red.

Ibram/Erica, I hope you do not seriously mean what you wrote there. If so, even if you feel that way sometimes, I sincerely hope you don't waste one more breath on such a notion. It is obvious that Sheldon's language, or any other person's language does not erase your identity. I pray that you merely misspoke. Such a situation as you describe, when it occurs in earnest, truly only reveals the speaker's ignorance and blindness, knowing or otherwise.

Please do continue to fight the good fight as you see it. Live right, speak out, and loudly. Persist and persuade. But don't let something like another person's words or attitudes or actions have much room in your consciousness, much less in your reality. A remark like this may make you *feel* as though you may be erased **TO THEM**, but that is not your problem, it is their problem.

[HungLikeJesus]

Wow! Very well said, A.

[Clodfobble]

Ibram, the difficulty is not in calling someone a she if they want to be called a she, it's with remembering the changes from year to year. I humbly suggest you make a new user name if you want people to think of you as someone different than you used to be. Heck, sometimes it's a good idea to do that just to separate yourself from your younger self.

[infinite monkey]

So everyone should make an attempt to understand you and where you're coming from (I'm afraid to use the 'wrong' words) but you have no problem judging and chastising someone like JBK...why?

[Ibby]

Originally Posted by infinite monkey

So everyone should make an attempt to understand you and where you're coming from (I'm afraid to use the 'wrong' words) but you have no problem judging and chastising someone like JBK...why?

my "attacks" on JBK were all exhortations to make damn sense. I'm not telling him to leave or go home or shut up or anything else, and i'm not "judging" anything except for the incomprehensibility of his content. JBK makes no effort to and has no interest in helping anyone understand where he's "coming from" at any given point, except to say that he doesn't intend to make sense. That's a valid way to communicate, but it's equally valid to criticize it as opaque and nonsensical. Just like, you can use whatever damn pronouns you want, for me, but it's perfectly legitimate for me to correct you if I would prefer female ones, and its perfectly legitimate to point out when I feel like people are talking offensively. I don't care if you think it's overly sensitive of me.

[Undertoad]

Trantrums!

Ibs, you know who doesn't give two shits about "educating" people about gender issues? Post-ops.

I've been close friends with one, friends with two others and acquaintances with two more. Once they're women, they're women and all the gender politics is no longer interesting. It's dropped, permanently.

Oh and. Please consider never again using the word "worldview". Just say "view", unless you want to be the most blowhardy blowhard ever.

[Ibby]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Ibs, you know who doesn't give two shits about "educating" people about gender issues? Post-ops.

I've been close friends with one, friends with two others and acquaintances with two more. Once they're women, they're women and all the gender politics is no longer interesting. It's dropped, permanently.

That is sometimes the case, yes. So? Not all trans* people intend to have surgery, and not everyone in the trans* community is an activist. I am. The same way I speak out on some gay issues, or some economic issues, or some international issues, that i consider it important for people to BE active about, I speak out on trans* issues, even if not every member of the community thinks it's an issue worth pursuing, or even agree that its an issue at all. I think its sad that NOT everyone in the community is an activist, but I'm going to continue to follow my own passion in the issue.

[Pico and ME]

Ib, don't take these responses personally, in fact, just say your piece and then leave their responses alone.

You do what you need to do.

[infinite monkey]

my "attacks" on JBK were all exhortations to make damn sense. I'm not telling him to leave or go home or shut up or anything else, and i'm not "judging" anything except for the incomprehensibility of his content. JBK makes no effort to and has no interest in helping anyone understand where he's "coming from" at any given point, except to say that he doesn't intend to make sense. That's a valid way to communicate, but it's equally valid to criticize it as opaque and nonsensical. Just like, you can use whatever damn pronouns you want, for me, but it's perfectly legitimate for me to correct you if I would prefer female ones, and its perfectly legitimate to point out when I feel like people are talking offensively. I don't care if you think it's overly sensitive of me.

Take the pill of chill dude...I barely said anything.

But I will now, and I don't care if you think it's overly meanie weanie of me: you get offended over shit even as people are trying to understand what you are saying. You'll be happy to know I read about every other word in this previous post, because WTF.

JBK has admitted to schizophrenia. You've admitted to being transgendered or whatever word I'm allowed to use. People bend over backwards to understand your position. But you got all pissy with JBK for no reason...why, because you don't 'get' schizophrenia? Well, I don't 'get' whatever it is you're hoping to accomplish, but I've kept my mouth shut. JBK isn't the issue. You are. You're on a fast track to crazy town, is what you are.

So put your big girl panties on, take a deeeeeep breath, and lay off the booze for a while.

kthx

[Ibby]

Originally Posted by infinite monkey

You're on a fast track to crazy town, is what you are.

concise enough for you?

[Big Sarge]

So we have male, female, and transgendered? What about me???

[classicman]

Originally Posted by Big Sarge

What about me???

Pandabare?

[Sheldonrs]

I'm sorry Ibram. I meant no offense. I'll leave this thread alone now.

[Sundae]

Originally Posted by Sheldonrs

I'm sorry Ibram. I meant no offense. I'll leave this thread alone now.

No, don't Sheldon.
You have as much right to be in this thread as Ibram.

You make me laugh.