Men Abortion and Choice

[Happy Monkey]

That is a place where the law can, and should, be more gender-blind, though the chances of misidentifying the mother are considerably lower.

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by rkzenrage

And I see it as the man has as much right to the fetus as the womans as it is half his.

Yet, she has to feed and put up with it for nine months while you don't have to do anything, hardly equal.

Your view is matriarchal because you feel the woman should have sole choice in the matter.

She is not forcing her views on anyone though. If a woman wants to get an abortion she is not forcing any view on anyone else, if a man wants to stop an abortion he has to force his views on her. That is why your view is patriarchal and I am not matriarchal. You are forcing your views on other people while the woman is not forcing anything on the man. The system is naturally unequal.

You are saying the woman should have the right to force the man to allow his child to be aborted with no say.

How can you force a man to allow his child to be aborted? Once his sperm leaves his body he has no control over what happens to the baby so nothing can be forced upon him.

I am saying if the man states he is willing to accept full custody, and only then, he can take responsibility for the child.

In an ideal world I would love for that to happen, but as long as the woman gives birth it can not be equalized. If you can find a way where a woman doesn't have to give birth then your point is valid, until then it isn't.

Can a man force a woman to have an abortion if he does not want a child?

Yes he can physically but that would be a man forcing his influence on a woman. As long as a woman gives birth she has an unequal say on the matter, and until you can find a way for woman not to give birth it will stay that way.

Why not? By your logic, if someone does not want a child they should not be FORCED to have it in the world.

Because the man doesn't give birth to the child he can not be forced to have it. Once the sperm leaves his body, he does not have natural control on the matter.

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by rkzenrage

By your logic, no man should ever be forced to take any responsibility for their children in any way.

Some may make it seem so, but extracting money is not actually a medical procedure.

[DanaC]

I do, parents are parents.
Make a child, they are yours for life.
Men and women are equal.

So do you think all parents should be forced to look after their children for life, even if they are not suited to it and the child would be better off with someone else? Maybe we should ban adoption. We could allow it in extreme circumstances where the parents are killed, but other than that all parents should be forced to parent.

[kerosene]

Originally Posted by rkzenrage

He only has a say, with my suggestion, if he wants full custody of that child, no other time... and if he could carry the child (which they were looking at for a time) sure, I have no issue with it.

Sure, if he could carry the child. I am all for it. But since he can't, I ain't biting.

Originally Posted by rkzenrage

The revenge problem is a possibility, as is the preferential treatment of women by the courts today. But, he has a baby that is his and only his out of it.
I just don't see a male using this as something to harm someone because they end-up with more of the burden and problems than she does in the long run. But, this is a good point.

Yes, I will give you that mothers do get preferential treatment in custody cases, most of the time. That should change. Parents should be viewed as equal parties, but not until the child is born. Why? Because it isn't a child until it is born.

Also, it might be easy for a person to say "Oh yes, I am going to raise that child" (fill out the form, drop it off at the courthouse, etc.) but when it comes to raising the kid, what is to stop the guy from hauling the baby down to his nearest dropoff once it is born? Yes, I know, there is nothing stopping mothers from doing it, now, and there is nothing stopping teenagers from throwing their babies in dumpsters. Yes, it is a sad world. Let's try and minimize the damage.

Originally Posted by rkzenrage

He wants the baby.
How is that different than the mother deciding she wants to keep the baby?
There is none, that is the point.
I do not accept the assumption that women are better parents.
The risks of the child being unwanted are the same with the female parent.

No, women aren't necessarily better parents...but in this case, dad isn't able to parent, yet. The woman wants to not take the responsibility of carrying fetus, let alone caring for it after birth. The man may want to care for it after birth, but sadly enough, he isn't carrying it, so he doesn't get to decide. Men don't get to decide not to be able to carry a child, right now. Maybe technology will change that.

Originally Posted by rkzenrage

In-vitro DNA.

If dad isn't on the list, how do they make the comparison?

Originally Posted by rkzenrage

I agree with the first part, but we are talking about once it is too late.
No physical responsibility? It is half of him, physically. That is the point.

Yes, we are talking about once the woman DOES get pregnant by him. No, he has no physical responsibility to the fetus...meaning if he decides to fast for a week, that doesn't affect the fetus. Meaning if he decides to do coke, that doesn't affect the fetus. If he eats well, gets exercise...guess what? It does the fetus no good and no harm. When Mom's blood pressure spikes and she dies or needs a C-section, Dad is unaffected but the fetus is. If we are going to have legal abortion, it should be up to the woman. End of story. Hopefully, she has the decency to involve dad in the decision, but if dad isn't around, or doesn't seem to care, it's up to her.

Originally Posted by rkzenrage

That is really OT for this, will but up to the courts to decide. She signed her rights away. I hope that he would retain primary custody as long as he is a good parent.

If your law were reality, I would hope this would be the case, actually.

Originally Posted by rkzenrage

She wanted to kill the kid... not sure how I feel about that after the fact. But, people change... guess it would depend on the individual case.

I haven't known a lot of women who had abortions, but those I have known, I can promise you, are not cold hearted killers. Those I know chose the option out of desperation and extreme guilt. I know pro-lifers out there balk at that, but I think it needs to be said that it hasn't been an easy decision for any of the women I have known who made that one.

For the record, I could not go through with an abortion. But I am not about to tell another woman she can't. I don't know her circumstances, her heart or her motivations.

[freshnesschronic]

The Matrix would solve everything!

[DucksNuts]

Originally Posted by Aliantha

I thought it was protien?

Originally Posted by DanaC

I suspect its a little of both......probably no carbs though..

Protein, Magnessium and Potassium. Low Carbs, High GI.

[yesman065]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

Here it is. Ah, good times.

I'd have to defer to the woman having the ultimate decision here - even though, as a man, I would like to have more say, it really isn't mine to have - it is her body.

[side]Clod, That was a very interesting read. I was on the complete opposite end of that situation. It seemed that she was referring to one situation of an asshole and painting every father with the same brush. As it stands today, I the father, have custody of all my kids and the mother is getting married to a guy she has known less than a year. None of the kids want to go to the wedding. I am strongly urging them all to do so.[track]

[lumberjim]

wow, her new guy must have a big cock.

[yesman065]

Originally Posted by lumberjim

wow, her new guy must have a big cock.

Whatever it takes to get here stupid ass away from the kids so she doesn't fuck them up anymore than she already has. Thanks for the insight there LJ.

[DanaC]

Lj, please reassure me that your real life occupation isnt as a therapist of any kind :P

Tough gig yesman, sounds like you got the better part of the bargain.

[Undertoad]

Originally Posted by wolf

Not in the United States.

The "up to the end of the first trimester" is a matter of convention, not law.

Up to viability, is the current US law.

[DanaC]

I'm not sure what our law is.

[Cicero]

I'm still shocked this is even up for debate. Incredible. Paternal laws can go to hell. That's how they made sure women didn't legally get to own anything, I guess we are still not deemed as human...like we are still just a bunch of baby-bags. Hey let's just go right back there....after all this. Awesome. I'm going to throw something, or someone......how irritating. Those of you that agree to these barbaric policies................shame on you!

Then what are you going to do? Sue us for having a sugar cream filled donut while we are forced to incubate your child? Fuck off. And no- I'm not going to edit.

[yesman065]

Originally Posted by DanaC

Tough gig yesman, sounds like you got the better part of the bargain.

I gave all my money and then some to her or lawyers - I ended up with the kids and a heavily mortgaged house - In my opinion, I got the better end by far. tx