Islamo-Fascism Awareness Week

[Aliantha]

I think that's pretty accurate Merc. Nice work.

[Undertoad]

But in the late 1700s and early 1800s white settlers moved in and either killed them or forced them to live in reservations.

But that's not the end of the story. After that, the Lakota people indoctrinated their children in hate and taught them to attack the white settlers with terror and assymetrical tactics.

[Aliantha]

Watch out...Admin is here!

[Radar]

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

So if I ban guns and Radar revolts I get to use his children as body shields? Nice...

But anyways, Radar, I want you to answer these questions with zero bullshit.

1) Your argument for Israel becoming a state is because their was an Israeli state 2,000 years ago and the Jews should return to their home.

False. My argument for Israel becoming a state AGAIN has nothing to do with it being a state earlier, though having a small portion of the land that was historically the homeland of the Jews is cool. My argument for Israel becoming a state was that the rightful owners (the U.K.) GAVE the land to the Jews to build a new homeland in a portion of their historical one.

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

Now, the Lakota People of Minnesota and North and South Dakota had been living in that area for long time, I haven't seen any dates of when they moved in. But in the late 1700s and early 1800s white settlers moved in and either killed them or forced them to live in reservations. Now, you are saying that Israel should get its state back after 2,000 years, why aren't you fighting for a Lakota state of only losing their land of 250 years? Remember, like the Jews, the Lakota people have been living in this area when it has been under foreign occupation as well. For example, I am good friends with someone of Lakota decent and he goes to my school.

This is unrelated to my reasons for supporting the legitimate state of Israel. But even so, the Indians did not ever own land. Indians didn't even believe land could be owned. They thought of land as a living organism that belonged to whatever god they happened to believe in.

Land can't be stolen from those who never owned it.

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

2) Igoring a larger state of Palestine, the people living in Palestine have been living in that area and have owned property there for over 3,000 years (Jews living in Palestine are considered Palestinians), do you not believe in a human right of owning property? Those people have owned land whether they were under foreign control or not, and you are justifying the forced movement of over 4 million refugees. How can this be with your strong libertarian influences. I, and I'm sure you wouldn't either, would not give up my house so the Lakota people could move back in, why should the Palestinian people give up their personal property for people that have not lived there for 2,000 years (assuming most Jews immigrated, which is highly true)?

The so-called Palestinian people did not live there for 3,000 years and most certainly NEVER owned any of the land. If I build a house on your land without your knowledge and live there for 40 years, I don't have any legitimate claim to your land. Also, your laughable claim that the Jews had moved away for 2,000 years is entirely false.

I certainly support private property ownership. In fact, private property ownership is the foundation of all human rights.

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

3) You have justified Israel's actions with the thought that a few bad apples can spoil the whole bunch. A very few amount of Palestinians (less than 1 in 1,000) have resorted to terrorist like actions and many Palestinians look down upon these actions but have zero means of stopping them. Now, are you willing to say it is OK for you to be bombed (this includes everyone you love) because of the actions of Bush and the neo-cons or are you going to stop them yourself? The choice is yours.

Your 1 in a thousand numbers are ridiculous. The overwhelming majority of so-called Palestinian people support the murder of Jews, and deny the right of Israel to exist. The number who been involved in planning, assisting, or carrying out attacks against Israeli Jews is closer to 2-5% than 1%.

The percentage is irrelevant though. Those who don't take part in the attacks shelter, and protect those who do. This makes them just as guilty as those doing it. The so-called Palestinian people are endangering their own people by hiding among them after attacking Jews.

Israel is fully capable of killing each and every single Muslim in the middle-east without any help from America. The only reason Israel doesn't do this is because they aren't interested in conquest, in taking what others have, in killing Muslims, or in doing anything other than living in peace on their own honestly acquired land (all of the land they hold). Israel will do whatever it takes for this to happen, whether they are extending a hand of friendship or a gun to put a bullet through those who would destroy them.

Peace would exist tomorrow if the so-called Palestinians would just stop killing Jews. The problem is they aren't interested in peace. They are only interested in killing Jews and wiping Israel off the map which will NEVER happen. Israel will be around even after America is gone.

[Aliantha]

You know, the only thing Jewish Israelis ever did was whine more than anyone else who ever had their country invaded. They whined and whined till the rest of the world got together and decided to give them something to shut them up, and now they're still fucking whining.

When will they be happy? Never.

I'm sorry, but I'm just sick and tired of people trying to excuse Israels actions in the middle east and call everyone else the bad guys.

Chosen people my arse. They're just people like everyone else.

[queequeger]

Originally Posted by Radar

False. My argument for Israel becoming a state AGAIN has nothing to do with it being a state earlier, though having a small portion of the land that was historically the homeland of the Jews is cool. My argument for Israel becoming a state was that the rightful owners (the U.K.) GAVE the land to the Jews to build a new homeland in a portion of their historical one.

The so-called Palestinian people did not live there for 3,000 years and most certainly NEVER owned any of the land. If I build a house on your land without your knowledge and live there for 40 years, I don't have any legitimate claim to your land. Also, your laughable claim that the Jews had moved away for 2,000 years is entirely false.

So the arabs that were booted out NEVER built houses with their own money, on land they were given from the UK, legally and with the knowledge of the UK government?

Oh, and while we're at it, the Diaspora never happened. In fact, when Israel was founded, the Israelis didn't move in on hundreds of boats and planes like we've seen in pictures... they came out of their caves and rose from the mud they'd been hiding in.

Originally Posted by Radar

I certainly support private property ownership. In fact, private property ownership is the foundation of all human rights.

Unless it's Palestinians, then their 'ownership' is not a right

Originally Posted by Radar

Your 1 in a thousand numbers are ridiculous. The overwhelming majority of so-called Palestinian people support the murder of Jews, and deny the right of Israel to exist. The number who been involved in planning, assisting, or carrying out attacks against Israeli Jews is closer to 2-5% than 1%.

So you're saying that of the five or so million folks living in Israel, 125,000-250,000 of them are fighting Israel? Jesus, why aren't they winning!?

Originally Posted by Radar

The percentage is irrelevant though. Those who don't take part in the attacks shelter, and protect those who do. This makes them just as guilty as those doing it. The so-called Palestinian people are endangering their own people by hiding among them after attacking Jews.

Here we get to your "If I use your child for a human shield, you're not allowed to get mad" argument.

Originally Posted by Radar

Israel is fully capable of killing each and every single Muslim in the middle-east without any help from America. The only reason Israel doesn't do this is because they aren't interested in conquest, in taking what others have, in killing Muslims, or in doing anything other than living in peace on their own honestly acquired land (all of the land they hold). Israel will do whatever it takes for this to happen, whether they are extending a hand of friendship or a gun to put a bullet through those who would destroy them.

Peace would exist tomorrow if the so-called Palestinians would just stop killing Jews. The problem is they aren't interested in peace. They are only interested in killing Jews and wiping Israel off the map which will NEVER happen. Israel will be around even after America is gone.

Because it's the chosen land. Chosen by the UN.

[Radar]

Originally Posted by Aliantha

You know, the only thing Jewish Israelis ever did was whine more than anyone else who ever had their country invaded. They whined and whined till the rest of the world got together and decided to give them something to shut them up, and now they're still fucking whining.

When will they be happy? Never.

I'm sorry, but I'm just sick and tired of people trying to excuse Israels actions in the middle east and call everyone else the bad guys.

Chosen people my arse. They're just people like everyone else.

Yes, what crazy people for claiming that those who strap bombs to themselves and blow up women and children are bad guys. Merely because the nations around them don't recognize their right to exist and have promised to murder them all and drive them into the ocean, they think they are bad guys.

They asked for a country (no whining necessary, though they had plenty to whine about nearly being wiped out by Nazis) and the U.N. did the right thing with the U.K. and gave them some of their historical homeland back.

You ask when they will be happy. The answer is when they can walk around their streets without fear of being blown to bits every day. When they can know that the countries around theirs recognize their right to exist and stop trying to destroy them. When they can go about their business without having to look over their shoulder.

That doesn't seem like too much to ask for.

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by Radar

False. My argument for Israel becoming a state AGAIN has nothing to do with it being a state earlier, though having a small portion of the land that was historically the homeland of the Jews is cool. My argument for Israel becoming a state was that the rightful owners (the U.K.) GAVE the land to the Jews to build a new homeland in a portion of their historical one.

Fuck that shit, the people who live in Palestine should be deciding what is happening to their homeland, whether they own it or not, not a country thousands of miles away. That is the whole point of the American Revolution, freedom from oppression, and then you justify the oppressive actions of colonization later on just because it works in your interests, bullshit. The people that were living in Palestine should have decided what happened, not the British.

This is unrelated to my reasons for supporting the legitimate state of Israel. But even so, the Indians did not ever own land. Indians didn't even believe land could be owned. They thought of land as a living organism that belonged to whatever god they happened to believe in.

Land can't be stolen from those who never owned it.

Just because they didn't own land in the European way doesn't mean they didn't have a right to live there. The fact is that people were living there for thousands of years and we kicked them out, whether the fit your bullshit definition of "owning" land or not, they still lived there.

And your views are wrong, just because some American Indians didn't believe that land could be owned doesn't mean all of them didn't. There were cultures much different than the plain Indian culture, which only occurred after European settlers came to North America by the way.

The so-called Palestinian people did not live there for 3,000 years

Oh really, then where did they come from?

Lets look at genetics:

Nebel et al. regard their findings in good agreement with historical evidence that suggest that "Part, or perhaps the majority, of the Muslim Arabs in this country descended from local inhabitants, mainly Christians and Jews, who had converted after the Islamic conquest in the seventh century AD... These local inhabitants, in turn, were descendants of the core population that had lived in the area for several centuries, some even since prehistoric times.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palesti...al_populations

and most certainly NEVER owned any of the land. If I build a house on your land without your knowledge and live there for 40 years, I don't have any legitimate claim to your land.

What is your definition of owning land? And please back up your analogy, I'm calling bullshit on it. Show me where Palestinians built houses on land without someone's knowledge.

Also, your laughable claim that the Jews had moved away for 2,000 years is entirely false.

A lot of Jews living in that area moved away when the temple was destroyed, but no, not all of them moved away. Yet, most of the Jews or Christians converted to Islam, hence why Muslims were and are the majority from the 12th century to today.

Look at the second graph down:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palesti...y_demographics

I certainly support private property ownership. In fact, private property ownership is the foundation of all human rights.

Then why are justifying the action of kicking people out of their homes that they privately owned. You can say the British owned Palestine all you want but the fact is that individual Palestinians owned individual land and houses before Israel was created.

Your 1 in a thousand numbers are ridiculous. The overwhelming majority of so-called Palestinian people support the murder of Jews, and deny the right of Israel to exist. The number who been involved in planning, assisting, or carrying out attacks against Israeli Jews is closer to 2-5% than 1%.

This is controversial. I've heard that the majority of Palestinians want peace but can not do it with Israel pressing down on them. I can't find my source to back mine up but whatever. And just because they elected Hamas does not mean they support their views, Hamas was basically the only choice they had considering how corrupt and run down Fatah was.

The percentage is irrelevant though. Those who don't take part in the attacks shelter, and protect those who do. This makes them just as guilty as those doing it. The so-called Palestinian people are endangering their own people by hiding among them after attacking Jews.

How so? If you are talking about hospitals and schools that is a load of shit. Hamas and them run hospitals, schools, etc so you can't expect Palestinians to just avoid those places.

Peace would exist tomorrow if the so-called Palestinians would just stop killing Jews. The problem is they aren't interested in peace. They are only interested in killing Jews and wiping Israel off the map which will NEVER happen. Israel will be around even after America is gone.

I call bullshit on this. I guarantee that most Palestinians will be happy with a one-state solution, something Israel hasn't considered either. Also, just focusing on physical violence is very biased in this situation. Israel can hurt Palestinians without physical violence while Palestinians can not. Israel can punish Palestinians by flipping a switch, so directly comparing those two is very flawed.

Originally Posted by Undertoad

But that's not the end of the story. After that, the Lakota people indoctrinated their children in hate and taught them to attack the white settlers with terror and assymetrical tactics.

And if America was taken over by communists and everything Americans once knew of was destroyed in the 1960s you think the same thing wouldn't happen?

[Radar]

Originally Posted by queequeger

So the arabs that were booted out NEVER built houses with their own money, on land they were given from the UK, legally and with the knowledge of the UK government?

They built houses with their own money on land they never owned. In fact the UK didn't give any land to those people until 1947. The ones who lived on the wrong side of the line had to move out.

Originally Posted by queequeger

Oh, and while we're at it, the Diaspora never happened. In fact, when Israel was founded, the Israelis didn't move in on hundreds of boats and planes like we've seen in pictures... they came out of their caves and rose from the mud they'd been hiding in.

Yes, the majority of Jews were not in Israel and came back. But there were always Jews in Israel for every minute of the last 3,000 years. In fact they were the majority for most of those years.

Originally Posted by queequeger

Unless it's Palestinians, then their 'ownership' is not a right

Wrong. They have a right to private property ownership too. Building a house on someone else's property does not grant you ownership. They can also lose land in military disputes as has happened for thousands of years. When they attack Israel and they lose land, they have no valid complaints.

Originally Posted by queequeger

So you're saying that of the five or so million folks living in Israel, 125,000-250,000 of them are fighting Israel? Jesus, why aren't they winning!?

Nice try playing with the numbers. We were talking about the numbers among the so-called Palestinian people who do not live within Israel, but fine if you want to talk about the ones who are in Israel we can do that too.

The population of Israel is 6,426,679. Of that 16% are Muslim (1,028,268) people. I said 2-5% of the so-called Palestinian people actively take part in attacks against Jews (whether it's planning, doing paperwork, buying supplies, recruiting kids and teaching them to hate Jews, etc.) 2% of that number is 20,565. I think this is a fair number.

Originally Posted by queequeger

Here we get to your "If I use your child for a human shield, you're not allowed to get mad" argument.

If it's ok for you to shoot at me because I'm a Zionist, it's equally ok for me to put your child between you and me.

Originally Posted by queequeger

Because it's the chosen land. Chosen by the UN.

As well they should...and it was the U.K. and the U.N. working together to do the right thing...which they did.

[Radar]

MYTH

“The Jews have no claim to the land they call Israel.”

FACT

A common misperception is that all the Jews were forced into the Diaspora by the Romans after the destruction of the Second Temple in Jerusalem in the year 70 C.E. and then, 1,800 years later, suddenly returned to Palestine demanding their country back. In reality, the Jewish people have maintained ties to their historic homeland for more than 3,700 years.

The Jewish people base their claim to the Land of Israel on at least four premises: 1) the Jewish people settled and developed the land; 2) the international community granted political sovereignty in Palestine to the Jewish people; 3) the territory was captured in defensive wars and 4) God promised the land to the patriarch Abraham.

Even after the destruction of the Second Temple in Jerusalem and the beginning of the exile, Jewish life in the Land of Israel continued and often flourished. Large communities were reestablished in Jerusalem and Tiberias by the ninth century. In the 11th century, Jewish communities grew in Rafah, Gaza, Ashkelon, Jaffa and Caesarea.

The Crusaders massacred many Jews during the 12th century, but the community rebounded in the next two centuries as large numbers of rabbis and Jewish pilgrims immigrated to Jerusalem and the Galilee. Prominent rabbis established communities in Safed, Jerusalem and elsewhere during the next 300 years. By the early 19th century — years before the birth of the modern Zionist movement — more than 10,000 Jews lived throughout what is today Israel.1 The 78 years of nation-building, beginning in 1870, culminated in the reestablishment of the Jewish State.

Israel's international "birth certificate" was validated by the promise of the Bible; uninterrupted Jewish settlement from the time of Joshua onward; the Balfour Declaration of 1917; the League of Nations Mandate, which incorporated the Balfour Declaration; the United Nations partition resolution of 1947; Israel's admission to the UN in 1949; the recognition of Israel by most other states; and, most of all, the society created by Israel's people in decades of thriving, dynamic national existence.

[Radar]

MYTH

“Palestine was always an Arab country.”

FACT

The term "Palestine" is believed to be derived from the Philistines, an Aegean people who, in the 12th Century B.C.E., settled along the Mediterranean coastal plain of what are now Israel and the Gaza Strip. In the second century C.E., after crushing the last Jewish revolt, the Romans first applied the name Palaestina to Judea (the southern portion of what is now called the West Bank) in an attempt to minimize Jewish identification with the land of Israel. The Arabic word "Filastin" is derived from this Latin name.3

The Hebrews entered the Land of Israel about 1300 B.C.E., living under a tribal confederation until being united under the first monarch, King Saul. The second king, David, established Jerusalem as the capital around 1000 B.C.E. David's son, Solomon built the Temple soon thereafter and consolidated the military, administrative and religious functions of the kingdom. The nation was divided under Solomon's son, with the northern kingdom (Israel) lasting until 722 B.C.E., when the Assyrians destroyed it, and the southern kingdom (Judah) surviving until the Babylonian conquest in 586 B.C.E. The Jewish people enjoyed brief periods of sovereignty afterward before most Jews were finally driven from their homeland in 135 C.E.

Jewish independence in the Land of Israel lasted for more than 400 years. This is much longer than Americans have enjoyed independence in what has become known as the United States.4 In fact, if not for foreign conquerors, Israel would be 3,000 years old today.

Palestine was never an exclusively Arab country, although Arabic gradually became the language of most the population after the Muslim invasions of the seventh century. No independent Arab or Palestinian state ever existed in Palestine. When the distinguished Arab-American historian, Princeton University Prof. Philip Hitti, testified against partition before the Anglo-American Committee in 1946, he said: "There is no such thing as 'Palestine' in history, absolutely not."5

Prior to partition, Palestinian Arabs did not view themselves as having a separate identity. When the First Congress of Muslim-Christian Associations met in Jerusalem in February 1919 to choose Palestinian representatives for the Paris Peace Conference, the following resolution was adopted:

We consider Palestine as part of Arab Syria, as it has never been separated from it at any time. We are connected with it by national, religious, linguistic, natural, economic and geographical bonds.6

In 1937, a local Arab leader, Auni Bey Abdul-Hadi, told the Peel Commission, which ultimately suggested the partition of Palestine: "There is no such country [as Palestine]! 'Palestine' is a term the Zionists invented! There is no Palestine in the Bible. Our country was for centuries part of Syria."7

The representative of the Arab Higher Committee to the United Nations submitted a statement to the General Assembly in May 1947 that said "Palestine was part of the Province of Syria" and that, "politically, the Arabs of Palestine were not independent in the sense of forming a separate political entity." A few years later, Ahmed Shuqeiri, later the chairman of the PLO, told the Security Council: "It is common knowledge that Palestine is nothing but southern Syria."8

Palestinian Arab nationalism is largely a post-World War I phenomenon that did not become a significant political movement until after the 1967 Six-Day War and Israel's capture of the West Bank.

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by Radar

Yes, the majority of Jews were not in Israel and came back. But there were always Jews in Israel for every minute of the last 3,000 years. In fact they were the majority for most of those years.

Radar's second last post

There were Jews living in Israel for the past 3,000 years, but they have no been the majority since before the 5th century BC. Between the 5th and 12th (??) it has been Christians and then Muslims up to this day. So both Christians and Muslims have just as much right to that land as Jews have.

Source (Look at second graph):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palesti...y_demographics

They built houses with their own money on land they never owned. In fact the UK didn't give any land to those people until 1947. The ones who lived on the wrong side of the line had to move out.

Wrong. They have a right to private property ownership too. Building a house on someone else's property does not grant you ownership. They can also lose land in military disputes as has happened for thousands of years. When they attack Israel and they lose land, they have no valid complaints.

Both these arguments are basically the same so I will combine them.

One question. How would the Palestinians have gotten "ownership" of the land they build their houses on?

And once again, you are foolishly support colonization. The people that live on the land should have control over it, not some country over a thousand miles away.

[Radar]

In answer to your question, to gain ownership of the land, they would have to get a deed issued by the government who controlled the land at the time. Each time a new empire took over, they'd require a new deed.

[Aliantha]

They asked for a country (no whining necessary, though they had plenty to whine about nearly being wiped out by Nazis) and the U.N. did the right thing with the U.K. and gave them some of their historical homeland back.

OK then Radar, if that's how you feel, when are you going to give your back yard back to the indigenous Americans?

That was the point I was making. What was yours???

[DanaC]

that the standards which we apply to every other civilised nation don't apply to Israel as they're a special case?