Anger Over Mohammed Cartoon

[Kitsune]

Originally Posted by Pie

Yes, they usually can't be rehabilitated.

Source, please. I keep hearing the line "they can't be cured" and "they can't be rehabilitated", but my Abnormal Psych class and book said otherwise.

[footfootfoot]

I'm making this up as I go along but I doubt that someone's sexual orientation can be rewired. Despite fundies claims that it is as easy as accepting you know who as you saviour etc., I know plenty of gays that found jesus and that didn't change things a lick. (ahem)

I also know of a couple of cases where parents have tried reprogramming a la cult reformation with imaginably disasterous results.

Like I said, I'm no expert and I'm just spinning this out of whole cloth but I don't think leopards can change their spots no matter a) how much they may truly want to or b) how much they tell their parole board they truly want to.

But what do I know?

[Pie]

Originally Posted by Kitsune

Source, please. I keep hearing the line "they can't be cured" and "they can't be rehabilitated", but my Abnormal Psych class and book said otherwise.

Kit, I got no source. If you've taken Abnormal Psych (cool name) you're way ahead of me. I'm just quoting the prevailing wisdom, a la foot3.
So, what does the AP book say about pedophiles and their treatment?
-Pie

[lumberjim]

Originally Posted by Tonchi

Thanks to you, UT, for shoveling that stinking pile of shit off the porch here. I never even attempted to comment on anything that jerk wrote because I could tell from his first week onsite that this was all a game he was playing. It's called Mind Fuck. I've seen it played before and I'll confess having tried it myself when I was considerably less mature. The object is not to learn or expound anything, the only purpose is to confound the person(s) you are talking to at every turn. Even if it means spinning on your heels and reversing your previous position, you must never let the other person form a reply or get a handle on the bombast you are hurling at him, always be derisive and negative, and always crush down any attempt to point out facts or pin down one element to resolve it. The subject is irrelevant, the player gets his kicks from preventing anything other that the thread he controls from entering into the discussion. It is manipulative to the max, that is the sole purpose of the game, and I watched that jerk even switch directions and compliment some of you on your "astute observations" so that he could continue to play ringmaster and keep the game moving. I don't doubt that people who like this kind of thing are sociopaths. The game of Mind Fuck is a mainstay on college campuses where there are a lot of immature kids who are trying to make themselves appear powerful and clever, and there are lots of people the gamer can play with who have not reached the point in their lives of knowing what they believe or how to express it. Given the level of intellectual development at The Cellar, I'm amazed that nobody caught on. Dov was just pushing buttons and blowing smoke, he didn't have any agenda more important than making an increasingly disgusting mess and seeing how long we would put up with it.

you mean except for you, that is. i think pretty much everyone knew he was a troll. your putting it under the label of 'mind fuck' ( which is a corny term that is overused and underdescriptive) doesn't change it. i'm curious as to why you didn't express this opinion until after he was banned? is it a case of hindsight, or were you scared of him? i'm left with the taste of condescendingnessosity* in my mouth after reading your post. you practicing to be tw's apprentice?

*yeah, i made it up

[Kitsune]

Originally Posted by Pie

Kit, I got no source. If you've taken Abnormal Psych (cool name) you're way ahead of me. I'm just quoting the prevailing wisdom, a la foot3.
So, what does the AP book say about pedophiles and their treatment?
-Pie

That's okay, because I don't officially have a source on hand, either. (I sold the book back.) :p I shouldn't have, either, because the whole book was wonderfully interesting. Oh, the disorders and cased studies discussed in "infamous chapter 9" (sexual disorders, fetishes, etc) gave me a peek into a very, very different world.

I remember the rehab rate was actually pretty high, but I don't remember what the actualy percentage was. Well over 50%, I'm certain. Drugs in previous trials were ineffective, however, but certain cognitive-behavioral programs that involved something akin to "sexual reconditioning" were effective that resulted in no returns to disruptive thoughts or actions after years of followup. Dr. Fred Berlin wrote an interesting article that stated that pedophilia is very treatable and that the medical community should give the treatment options more attention and help make people aware.

Anyways, the argument... a graphic representation that hurts no one does just that: hurts no one. You can't get the thought police involved and into people's heads, only the physical actions of a person hold legal ground for action. Do we ban books about serial killers? Do we ban movies about terrorism? What of media that glorifies criminals? Should we make illegal anything that is a graphical representation of something illegal? Fantasies are just that and people need to seek help if they find their desires interfering with their lives and emotions. Forced treatment and arrest only come with threats and actions.

There are many violent, harmful, dangerous, and potentially illegal sexual desires that people have besides pedophilia. There is plenty of pornograpy, legally questionable and not, that caters to those fetishes. Locking everyone up that has a fantasy concerning forced sex, mutilation, violence, etc, etc, would push the system to the limits and solve nothing. Society needs to be concerned with those who show true warning signs, not the millions that write, create, distribute, or consume the questional materials and never physically act on their fantasies.

[Tonchi]

Originally Posted by lumberjim

you mean except for you, that is. i think pretty much everyone knew he was a troll. your putting it under the label of 'mind fuck' ( which is a corny term that is overused and underdescriptive) doesn't change it. i'm curious as to why you didn't express this opinion until after he was banned? is it a case of hindsight, or were you scared of him? i'm left with the taste of condescendingnessosity* in my mouth after reading your post. you practicing to be tw's apprentice?

Not scared of HIM, LJ, just totally disinterested in letting him get his rocks off by attacking ME to divert attention further from what he was doing here. In other words, this is not my forum. It is *yours*, and it is not my position to decide who you play with or how. Maybe some of you were having fun too, up to a point. I have most charactistically been a lurker, I prefer to drive around train wrecks and mass murders because I can learn more from watching how other people handle the situation than by getting bogged down in them myself. It makes no sense at all to argue with somebody whose only purpose is to disrupt and challenge the limits. I never thought he was a troll, just a jerk who was too twisted to control his impulses to fuck with your mind instead of have a productive exchange of views. If you think the term is corny, keep in mind that I got it from exactly those people I first observed playing it back in the '60s. It's a game that nobody is supposed to win except them, so DON'T PLAY.

So how do you figure I think I am the only one... etc.? I am not taking credit for anything, just expressing surprise that so many clear-thinking people with IQs and abilities so much greater than mine were willing to play his game for so long. Some people told him off or put him on their ignore list, but enough kept on playing to keep Dov happy until UT pulled the plug. That's what Dov's kind of person is good at, pulling the strings that keep us playing. As for any comparison with the great TW, jedi master of the rant, I am not worthy But thanks for thinking of me.

[xoxoxoBruce]

On occasion you get a newbie that will be obnoxious simply because that’s all they’ve seen on the net. You know what I’m talking about, there’s plenty of it out there.
If they are smart enough to see it draws a negative reaction and tone it down, they just might have something of value to contribute.

I’ll defer to the elder geeks and their experience in spotting bad apples. But, when the spaceship door opens and you blast away with a 12 gauge the minute they show, you might miss out on a wonderful anal probing.

[Pie]

Kitsune, you have again reaffirmed my faith in your intelligence. Well said.
- Pie

[xoxoxoBruce]

Society needs to be concerned with those who show true warning signs, not the millions that write, create, distribute, or consume the questional materials and never physically act on their fantasies.

And stop harassing parents that take photos of their naked children in the bathtub or backyard pool.

[tw]

Originally Posted by lumberjim

think pretty much everyone knew he was a troll. your putting it under the label of 'mind fuck' ... doesn't change it. i'm curious as to why you didn't express this opinion until after he was banned? is it a case of hindsight, or were you scared of him?

Dov was not a problem to anyone if that person had enough wintin to appreciate him. Notice my one simple exchange with him.

Isolationism
He defines the code as red but uses black letters. Now I understand.

UT understood. Although maybe he got the tense wrong. I was not going to be played. And yet I enjoyed watching him play on others.

Dov baits with illogic. No big deal. One simply ignores such illogic and looks beyond - to see his game. When asked to define what he was saying, he provided and I replied with more illogic. Fine. Just read what he posts and ignore those silly emotions that some here cannot suppress. He is (probably) young and flayling. Simply a person trying to learn to swim while still claiming he already knows how to swim. Did you find humor in that? I did.

Barak played a same game here on The Cellar, Mark I(?) He would make these wild claims about race relations, cite from his book, and hype so many here into a frenzy. The problem was not Barak so much as it was others who would be incited by Barak's mocking of 'you white boys'.

Those who were in The Cellar back then may recall when I joined the fray with a set of posts entitled "Hey Professor!" after Barak finally posted some numbers from his book. Guess what. After exposing those numbers as manipulated fraud - that any high school algebra student could have seen through - suddenly Barak disappearred. Completely stopped posting. Never heard another post from him.

Dov was just as intimidating. Appreciate what he really said and have no emotion. Then he is harmless. Yes he baited some. I found it totally amusing as I also found Barak amusing. Barak also said silly things that others got so incensed - for zero reasons. Especially - I think - Barak's repeated use of the phrase "you white boys". So entertaining to see nonsense from Barak and Dov AND to see others get so upset over what was intended to be nothing but nonsense.

Yes he talks in red; but posts in black. Did you appreciate what I was really posting? It was not just a response to Dov.

[lumberjim]

Originally Posted by tonchi

So how do you figure I think I am the only one... etc.?

just the way you phrased what i quoted in red.

you're amazed we didn't catch on. kind of self explanitory

and....tw, i got you yet again.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Pie

Actually, that's a very good question. Arguably, you cannot create kiddie porn without harming the kiddies -- that's the legal basis for banning the porn. There's been a whole new can o' worms opened with the concept of "virtual" kiddies -- no real person is being hurt. I still haven't made up my mind on this one.
Yes, pedophiles harm children. Yes, they usually can't be rehabilitated.

Recidivism among pedophiles is reported to be one of the lowest among criminals - about 15%. Crimes such as vehicle theft are typically 60+%. Above being a secondary point.

Primary point: one can appreciate Austria's fear or need (which one is part of a larger question) to make such holocaust laws that would otherwise be a violation of free speech. There is a line somewhere - subjectively. And that is the point.

However Irving all but flaunted that law. As long as he stayed out of Austria, then there would be no extradition. But Irving was either so obviously bold or so simply stupid as to go to Austria to give a speech to right wing extremist students. He all but begged Austria to enforce their laws. Austria did just that. IOW the purpose and enforcement of that law becomes secondary. The real penalty to Irving is because 1) he outrightly lied to the court about his change of opinion, and 2) he outrightly challenged Austria to enforce their laws.

Need we also cite an unfortunate American example - Dr Kevorkian?

[tw]

Originally Posted by lumberjim

you're amazed we didn't catch on. kind of self explanitory

If you had caught on, then you didn't and still don't care what dov had posted. His posts were totally irrelevant to one who understood. This being a Cliff Note version of my previous post.

[Undertoad]

All true tw. I think we proved, in Mark 1, that it was possible to show everyone that if they simply ignored such people, they would go away. One problem is, there are now more users. So A) there are so many more attention whores - they are now worldwide, and B) it's harder to educate everyone and motivate them around the common cause of a passive silent treatment.

[lumberjim]

Originally Posted by tw

If you had caught on, blah blah blah

shut up you silly old man.




and by shut up, i mean lecture me for 3 or 4 hundred lines about my emotions.

i was telling tonchi that she's saying that she was the only one that recognized that he was a troll....but by calling it something different....which he wasn't.