Islamo-Fascism Awareness Week

[Radar]

When human beings cease to exist. As long as there are human beings, there will be war and land disputes.

[DanaC]

Radar, what is the proper response to those who raze your home to the ground? What is the proper response to those who shoot your children (some of them babies)? What is the proper response to those who treat you as prisoners, even though you have committed no crime?

There's a young man, a Palestinian, whose middle class parents (yes there are a few of them left) sent him to be educated at Bradford university, in the UK. He returned home to visit his family during the Summer recess and the Israeli government have refused to allow him to leave Palestine and return to the UK for the third year of his degree. We're approaching the last 3 weeks of the first semester and he is still trapped behind the Wall. He is not a terrorist. He has committed no crime. He is just a young man trying to educate himself

The people living in the occupied territories are mainly crammed into one of the most densely populated areas of the planet, with very few amenities, intermittent (in some cases no) electricity supplies, tragically high unemployment rates, little access to medical care without running the gauntlet of checkpoints and occassionally opened gateways where they are routinely refused (this holds true for pregnant women trying to get to the hospitals). They are imprisoned. There is nowhere from them to go and even if there was, access to routes out are all but vanished.

These people have been imprisoned. The Gaza strip is the world's biggest prison camp in all but name.

The fact that Arab leaders and academics make hideous and unconscionable statements about the Holocaust, and about wiping Israel off the map is irrelevant to Israel's treatment of these people. The relatively small number of people who are involved in rebellion, do not justify Israel dehumanising and brutalising innocent civilians. To suggest it is wickedness incarnate for Hamas to send suicide bombers to kill Israeli babies and yet mere defence when Israel sends its soldiers or its bombs to kill Palestinian babies is intellectually bankrupt.

[DanaC]

When human beings cease to exist. As long as there are human beings, there will be war and land disputes.

Ok. What rules apply within those conflicts? What are the acceptable routes to winning a land dispute?

[Radar]

Israel is not responsible for the living conditions of their neighbors or their unemployment rates. It sounds like that young man should not live inside of Israel. If he lived outside of Israel in the Palestinian territory, he would not require the permission of the Israeli government to leave the area. I realize this is a catch 22.

There are people right here in America who can't travel either because they have been placed on a list. Of course I am against such policies here or there unless someone has reason to suspect a crime has been committed.

I suspect there is more to your friend's story than you know. The U.K. has been getting tighter with security and it may be blocked on their side without telling your friend.

Those who had homes torn down include both the Israeli Zionists and the so-called Palestinian people. Both have illegally built homes in disputed areas and both have been torn down by the Israeli government. I have never suggested that everything the Israeli government does is right, but everything it does is in its defense because they are under constant threat from their neighbors.

Those who lost homes in 1947, in 1967, or other battles are irrelevant. Israel was legitimately and honestly given land in 1947 and those who lost homes didn't own the land. It's a shame for them, but 60 years should have given them time to get over it. In the 6-day war, Israel was on the DEFENSIVE side of attacks by neighboring countries. In all fairness when Israel won, it could have taken HUGE pieces of land from the losing countries but it didn't. It only took a fairly small amount of land to act as a buffer originally and now uses this land for homes.

Those who lost land in the war have only their own governments to blame.

Israel does not go after women and children. Anyone who says they do is a liar. This is a statement of fact. Israel does all it can to retaliate without harming women and children but the terrorists hide among them. The deaths of those people rest squarely on the heads of those who hid among them to endanger them.

Israel doesn't hand AK-47s to toddlers and tell them the most glorious thing they can do is kill Arabs, but the reverse is true. Israel doesn't blow up crowded shopping malls full of Arab women and children, but the opposite is true. As a rule, Israel doesn't shoot children unless those children have a bomb strapped to them or otherwise pose an immediate danger (guns, slings with rocks, etc). Israel doesn't just randomly attack civilians. It only attacks those who have been involved in the planning or carrying out of attacks or known terrorist groups like Hamas or the PLO.

In stark contrast to the Arabs, Israel uses force only in defense.

Why don't the so-called Palestinians build their own hospitals? Why don't they build their own electrical stations? Why don't they build their own water treatment facilities and pumps?

Those who want to kill the Israelis expect Israel to provide them with water, food, electricity, etc. and call Israel monsters when they are cut off because they won't stop killing Jews or because they choose a terrorist organization to lead them.

[Radar]

Originally Posted by DanaC

Ok. What rules apply within those conflicts? What are the acceptable routes to winning a land dispute?

You can read about some of the rules here, Geneva Conventions

Basically both sides should be wearing uniforms to help avoid unnecessary civilian casualties. Both sides agree to treat prisoners in a way that doesn't violate their human rights. Both sides agree not to fire missiles from hospitals or blow up hospitals that aren't being used to launch attacks, etc.

Other than that, they kill each other until one gives up. To the winner goes the spoils.

[Undertoad]

when Israel sends its soldiers or its bombs to kill Palestinian babies

What sort of filter do you have on your perception that you can say that is what they do? Do you think the generals say to their tank commanders, "hey, drive around until you find a baby, and then kill it"?

[Radar]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

What sort of filter do you have on your perception that you can say that is what they do? Do you think the generals say to their tank commanders, "hey, drive around until you find a baby, and then kill it"?

Israel doesn't do this. But Hamas straps bombs to children or women and tell them to do exactly this.

[piercehawkeye45]

The people of Enron didn't put a gun to someone's head like some blue collared criminals do, but does that make what they did any less worse?

Comparing the actions of Israelis and Palestinians is basically comparing white and blue collared crime. There are many similarities but are too different fairly compare them face to face. That is why all the "stats" are total shit.

[Radar]

Ok, if you want to use a whitecollar/bluecollar example (which is a bogus comparison) it's like a huge WTA protest with thousand and thousands of people and some of them toss trashcans through the windows of businesses so the cops toss teargas into the crowd and fire rubber bullets. Some of the people who get hit weren't those involved in trashing someone else's property.

The innocent ones who got hurt were hurt because the ones who weren't innocent hid among the crowd and nobody did anything. The crowd didn't take part in the destructive act, but condoned it and allowed the guilty people to hide among them. If the crowd had pointed them out, and told them this kind of behavior wasn't acceptable, and turned the bad guys over to the police, the innocent ones wouldn't have been harmed or gotten beaten unconscious with a club.

Don't blame the police because they were forced to bust heads when some of the crowd started throwing glass bottles at them. Don't blame the businesses for using the police to defend their property. Blame those who started the problem in the first place when they deviated from peaceful protests into violent clashes or the destruction of property.

[piercehawkeye45]

How is the white collar/blue collar example bogus? You can't just say it is bad, show it.

A main difference between white and blue collar crime is the power and resources involved. If a blue collared worker needs to get money, he or she will most likely be forced to take it individually, which will usually involve some sort of forceful method such as an armed robbery. A white collared worker does not have to do that. He or she can use his or her resources to slyly take money away from a great number of people without violence.

The same can be applied to the Palestine/Israeli situation. The only way Palestinians can attack Israel is by physical force, usually by terrorist attacks. This is directly comparable to a stick up where one person or a small group will get physically hurt at one moment. While Israel can cut off supplies to the entire Palestinian region which hurts millions of people for a long time but usually does not involve direct physical attacks like a white collared worker can steal from thousands of people over a period of time without physical violence.

So, if Israel has the power and resources to avoid direct physical attacks, why would they use them just like why would a white collared worker get money by an armed robbery when he or she can use other methods? That is why comparing individual deaths or war tactics is pointless in this debate. We have two completely different styles of warfare so most "stats" are just picking out a biased comparison that will hurt one group while leaving the other unhurt.


I am not getting into proactive and reactionary attacks with this since that is just justification for attacks and have nothing to do with the overall tactics used by either side.

[Radar]

The whitecollar/bluecollar example is bogus because Israel isn't committing any kind of crime, let alone a white color crime. Also because Israel isn't trying to exert control over their neighbors; it is merely trying to defend itself from those who would destroy it. Israel has never been interested in conquest, has never said they would wipe other nations off the map, have never said they would kill all Arabs, etc. And lastly, murder is murder. It's not white or blue collar.

Israel is using defensive physical force against people who have actually harmed them. The Palestinians are using aggressive physical force against women and children who have not harmed them.

Israel isn't cutting off supplies from other people. They have cut off providing supplies that they were generously giving to those who wanted Israel destroyed. I'm sure the generous Arab nations will give until it hurts to those people right? Oh wait, no they won't because they don't care about the so-called Palestinians. They only give when it means Jews will be killed.

Israel does all it can to avoid physical attacks. This is why they have such tight security. Israel tries to avoid attacking other than when they must. Israel will do ANYTHING necessary to protect themselves and those who attack Israel are begging for destruction.

If Israel is the white-collar all powerful criminal elite (mafia), and the so-called Palestinians are the blue-collar street thugs, the guys on the street should know they can't mess with the organized crime bosses. When they do, they die and so do their families.

The difference is even stupid street thugs know not to rob a mob boss where the so-called Palestinians never seem to learn this lesson.

[Ibby]

Its amazing, to me, that someone as smart as you usually seem to be, radar, could believe that this issue is so perfectly black-and-white, without a shade of gray to be found.

It makes me sad. Its people like you, radar, who cause so much suffering, both in israel/palestine and elsewhere in the world. You people who believe so absolutely in who's right and who's wrong that you dont see that, regardless of who's right and who's wrong, people are suffering and dying, children are getting shot or maimed or blown up, wives are losing husbands, mothers losing daughters, sons losing fathers. People like you, radar, cause that suffering, people like you on both sides of the conflict.

If you are completely confident that you or your 'side' is absolutely in the right, that is possibly the surest sign that you are not.

[DanaC]

If you are completely confident that you or your 'side' is absolutely in the right, that is possibly the surest sign that you are not.

Wise words.

[Radar]

Originally Posted by Ibram

Its amazing, to me, that someone as smart as you usually seem to be, radar, could believe that this issue is so perfectly black-and-white, without a shade of gray to be found.

It makes me sad. Its people like you, radar, who cause so much suffering, both in israel/palestine and elsewhere in the world. You people who believe so absolutely in who's right and who's wrong that you dont see that, regardless of who's right and who's wrong, people are suffering and dying, children are getting shot or maimed or blown up, wives are losing husbands, mothers losing daughters, sons losing fathers. People like you, radar, cause that suffering, people like you on both sides of the conflict.

If you are completely confident that you or your 'side' is absolutely in the right, that is possibly the surest sign that you are not.

Yes, I am sure Israel is right because they are the defenders, and those who want to seem them destroyed are the attackers. My conviction has absolutely no connection to the veracity of my opinion.

This does not mean I don't feel pity and sadness for those who have lost loved ones on both sides. I find it horrible when anyone dies on either side of this conflict. I'm disgusted by it. It's a perfect example of why I believe religion is stupid. I think to myself, "When will this madness end?"

The answer to this question is simple. It will end when the so-called Palestinian people learn to care more about their children than they do about killing Jews. It will end as soon as the so-called Palestinian people want it to end. Israel will always use brutal force in their defense. History has proven thousands of times that when Israel chooses not to attack, they continue to be attacked so the fate of everyone on both sides is in the hands of the attackers... (the so-called Palestinians)

If they stop attacking Israel and electing terrorists as their leaders, Israel will stop retaliating with even harsher force and the longer they can go without murdering Jews, the more relaxed security will be and the better the conditions will get.

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by Radar

The whitecollar/bluecollar example is bogus because Israel isn't committing any kind of crime

Crime had nothing to do with this analogy, I was pointing out how Israel's greater power and influence influenced their tactics and how they look to the outside world.

I am not going to respond to the rest of the post because it will get us nowhere. While I do have understanding of their troubles, I have admitted and am critical to Palestinian mistakes and wrongdoings but you have never admitted to any mistake on the Israeli side. Your closemindedness is mindblowing and extremely dangerous.

I will say this though. There is only one way peace can be achieved in the Palestinian/Israeli area and that is the one state solution. If you really want peace and the deaths to stop, you have to realize that this is the only way. If you can not accept this and are still focused on the Zionist goal, you must realize that your side will allow the continuation of deaths on both the Israeli and Palestinian side with no progress being made except making a turn to genocide for a side not yet determined because of some unreachable bullshit ideal. The Palestinians are not going to drop their weapons down no matter how much you tell them too for reason you will probably never understand because you can NEVER relate to them. You can rant all you want but it will never happen and I hope you can acknowledge this. That means if you want progress in this region, you will have to give up your ideals for reality.