Who Supports the War(s)

[Tobiasly]

Originally posted by Radar

I'll tell you the same thing I tell all Christians. PROVE IT!

Show me his bones, dna evidence, some prove of the actual man. And not fake evidence like the shroud of turin which has been dated 600 years after the supposed death of Jesus.

How do you know that Hannibal used an army of elephants against the Romans? Do we have video footage of the event? Any living eye-witnesses?

No, but the story has lots of basis in fact, and parts of it coincide nicely with other parts of what we know of history. We take it as having actually happened because it seems rather plausible, and have no reason to believe otherwise.

So you're right, no one can <I>prove</I> that Christ lived, because anything you would consider proof didn't exist back then. So does that mean we just pretend everything that happened back then is a fairy tale?

[Tobiasly]

Originally posted by Radar
And it's sweet that you use linux. I like to play with it when I can but I've only got one box so I use Win2k. I'm a MCSE, MCT, A+, CNA, CNE. I'm not married to any OS but I like open source and I like linux. I have yet to see a web server better than apache. When I build my next box I'll probably make this one Linux. But there are a lot of flavors to use. The last one I used was Redhat and it installed in a snap. It recognized all my devices and had drivers for them. It required hardly anything to set up. Even easier than MS OS's

MCSE: Minesweeper Champion and Solitaire Expert?

I agree that Gates has done much more good than harm for society. We now have one prevalent personal computer platform instead of dozens -- and that's a good thing. He is largely responsible for bringing computing to the masses.

And he did it all out of greed. He stole others' ideas and used them as his own. He played the game harder and better than anyone else, made a fortune, and whoops, accidentally made the world a better place.

Then he went too far. And a groundswell of discontent finally exploded, and now Linux will eventually supplant both Microsoft and Unix in the server space.

Sun complained that Microsoft broke Java (no argument there), and got an injunction against them creating new, incompatible JVM's. They could continue to distribute their current JVM for a certain period. That is a case where we needed government intervention, and it worked the way it's supposed to.

So they decided to take the JVM out of Windows, and now Sun is bitching because it means a lot of Java stuff won't work out-of-the-box. So what do they do, develop a great JVM and work with OEM's to get it preinstalled? No, they go to court to force Microsoft to distribute it for them.

Why the hell should they? It's Microsoft's product, and Sun thinks they should be forced to distribute a competitor's product? Is Coke required to include a can of Pepsi in every twelve-pack they sell?

[Radar]

The libertarian position on these things is by its very nature, a selfish one, thankyou for pointing that out. Healthcare is not cheaper if you cannot afford it..

There's nothing selfish about Libertarianism. There's nothing selfish about allowing people the freedom to make their own healthcare decisions. It is selfish to think you're entitled to reach into someone else's pocket just because you want or need something. Healthcare is cheaper when you're not being robbed for half of your income. Then even those with the lowest paying jobs can afford healthcare. Others would get it from private charities, friends, family, neighbors, churches, etc. And there are plenty of people willing to provide these essential services if only they could afford to do it. But they can't when half of their income is being STOLEN from them to pay for unconstitutional social programs that don't help anyone. Yes, Medicare, medicaid, etc. don't help anyone. Not only that the most poor people can just walk into an emergency room and get treatment and never pay for it so yes those that can't afford healthcare are still getting it.

Frankly i find it a sign of a civilized society that we are willing to pay for the healthcare of those that cannot afford it, rather than going for the most cost effective option.

I don't find armed robbery very civilized. And that's what income tax is. Armed robbery. The threat of force is used against us to pay for social programs that don't help anyone and are illegal under the constitution. Private healthcare is better than socialized medicine 100% of the time. In fact private industry is more efficient and provides better service in all areas 100% of the time.

Here most of the healthcare is provided by the govt, the exception being public hospitals, it's just the govt picks up the bill. Yet somehow that is less efficient?

Canadian healthcare is absolutely less efficient, provides substandard healthcare, long waits for service, etc.

On the other hand if i made my money by supporting the faults of substandard operating systems i'm say something to that effect too.

Windows 2000 is the best operating system in the world. It's more stable than Linux and more user friendly. It's the most tested and secure piece of software ever created.

Mother Theresa - Selfllessly helped the poor for the vast majority of her life
Ghandi - Freed a nation of colonialism and pioneered non-violent protest
Bill Gates - made billions by developing other peoples software and ripping off their ideas, then gave a fraction of it away to charity.
Yea. very even.

Mother Theresa and Ghandi did a lot to help the poor. Bill Gates has done even more. Bill Gates has earned his money honestly and provided great products. He is a tough and astute businessman but that's how business works. The strong survive. He's given more money to charity than any other two people on the face of the earth. It's given close to 3 BILLION DOLLARS so far and intends to give his entire fortune. Just like Mother Theresa and Ghandi, Bill Gates had dedicated his life to helping others, especially the less fortunate.

Bill Gates isn't Microsoft. And Microsoft has only stolen 2 things in their entire existence; Stacker and Java, and I fault them for that. There are a lot of other companies that have done worse things. They didn't steal the GUI interface as Apple claims. They didn't steal Netscape as they claim. They haven't stolen anything wrong other than Java in the 90's and stacker in the 80's.

Microsoft are not a monopoly? That explains why they can bully OEMs and everyone else without fear of a backlash, that explains why they can use their overwhelming market share to quash any competition.

The definition of Monopoly means ONE CHOICE. There are many choices of operating systems and software. The fact that Microsoft has better marketing and happens to be the most succesful doesn't mean they're a monopoly. In fact Microsoft doesn't even sell the fastest selling Operating system. And don't blame Microsoft for exclusive OEM agreements. They give OEM's a choice. OEM's don't HAVE to sell their systems with Microsoft OS's installed. But if they want to Microsoft wants them to sign an agreement that says they will ONLY sell their systems with Microsoft OS's. The OEM's can easily tell Microsoft to forget it but they don't because they know their customers want systems with Microsoft OS's installed. There's no force, bullying, or coersion.

Microsoft is not, nor has it ever been a monopoly. Microsoft doesn't prevent competition either. Microsoft has embraced and encouraged innovation and standards not just for their own company but for everyone. Microsoft has used their influence in the software community to make things far better than they were before they were around.

Ohh sorry, I forgot, a free market could never let that happen, right

That's right. A free market PROMOTES an environment where even the smallest company can compete equally with the largest multi-national conglomerate and doesn't promote monopolies.

Even if it's going to create monopoly?

I didn't say I wanted a lawless market, just a free market. Companies that are not monopolies like Microsoft would be free to continue business, but the government WOULD get involved if say one company bought all the railroads in America. The government would still make sure we didn't have monopolies, that businesses didn't commit fraud, didn't sell faulty products, didn't misrepresent themselves to their customers, didn't pollute other people's land, etc.

Oh, dear, the mating cry of the cooercive collectivist: "It's so selfish of you to not give us what we want!".

Exactly! How selfish of you to not be happy when I try to rob you.

Bill Gates spends some of his money on the poor, while living his life in his mansions flying on private jets, crushing smaller companies, and refusing to give consumers the best products, all so he can squeeze a few more billions out of the public.

Bill Gates lives well. So what? Helping the poor doesn't mean you've got to be poor yourself. And Bill Gates doesn't crush smaller companies or even stop competition. Bill gates gives conumers great products that are feature rich and as stable as any other solution out there. You can't name a more stable OS than Windows 2000. And don't be an idiot and say Linux because you know that's a lie. I like Linux and find it very stable, but it's hardly as good as Win2k.

You really think he donates his money because he really cares, he does it to increase his public images, something that obviously has worked in your case.

People don't spend 3 BILLION dollars because they don't care. And Gates isn't stopping there, he's giving all of his money to the poor. All of it!

When gates gave that 3 BILLION DOLLARS, he did more in a single act for the poor than Mother Theresa and Ghandi did in their entire lifetimes.

Or does your definition of "seriously wrong" not include "dishonest" or "unethical" and embrace only "blatantly actionable"?

Microsoft does business honestly and ethically in almost all cases. The only exceptions were Java and Stacker. Everything else they've done has been above board.

But jaguar's right when he says that a civilized society does what it can to stop people from falling through the cracks. We, as Americans, do not do enough in this regard.

Americans are the most generous people on earth. We give more money to people in need than anyone else. When there's an earthquake in turkey, starving ethopians, WTC bombings, etc. Americans always come together to help.

The only thing stopping Americans from giving even more is our government stealing half of our income to pay for programs that don't help anyone.

The free market is not the answer to everything. I think it should generally be used for most industries, but there should be a close watch put on it. And certain things, like the health of the population, should not be left to the free market.

The free market is better, cheaper, and more efficient at ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING than the government. It makes no sense to leave the government in charge of healthcare. Everything the government touches turns to shit. The people who do healthcare the best and care about people the most (Free market) should handle important things like healthcare, retirement, charity, education, etc. Not glorified DMV workers who don't care and keep 85% of the money STOLEN for their own overhead.

I hate how people use the word "society" and forget that "society" includes those of us who want to keep our money and choose which charities we give to and which we don't. It's not selfish to choose where your money goes. It's very selfish to think it's ok to rob your neighbors for what you think their money should be spent on.

[Tobiasly]

Whoops, almost forgot...

Originally posted by Radar
I like to play with it when I can but I've only got one box so I use Win2k.

You mean you don't have some spare 486 laying around, or a couple other boxes you could cannibalize? Linux doesn't need much, ya know. You wouldn't even need a monitor or keyboard; just SSH in.

I first cobbled together a Linux box when I wanted to set up a cheap firewall/router, because I got a cable modem and there was no chance in the world I'm gonna let Windows sit connected to a 24/7 big ol' fat pipe to the outside. Even ZoneAlarm can't lock it up tight enough.

And it just ballooned from there.. I got sick of my ISP screwing up my email, so I bought a domain and set up my own email server. Then a web server to share pictures with my family, and FTP server to transfer MP3's to work, etc. etc.

[MaggieL]

Gates is giving all of his money to the poor, and MSFT is always ethical and honest.

Except for the Java licence.

Oh, and Stacker.

And Netscape...

And... and...

Sooner or later, *everyone* MSFT embraces as a "busness partner" (including "customers") gets screwed. No exceptions.

It's a bit like a casino; there's a house percentage and the only winners are those who cash out immediately after a big win. The rest take it up the ass eventually. That includes those bearing a string of shell-game certifications....they are viewed as "food" too. When they start paying by-the-drink for proprietary development tools they may begin to understand. :-)

But of course, this is how business is done, isn't it?

Maybe. But the developer communities (well, execpt the kids who got free .NET infomercials desguised as for-credit courses) are maturing enough to see whose stewardship of technical standards can and can't be trusted.

[Radar]

You mean you don't have some spare 486 laying around, or a couple other boxes you could cannibalize? Linux doesn't need much, ya know. You wouldn't even need a monitor or keyboard; just SSH in.

No, at the moment I've just got this one box. It sucks. But Linux is sweet. You can install it on a toaster. It's very robust and has a lot of great features. Plus most of the software for Linux is opensource freeware. Very sweet.

Gates is giving all of his money to the poor, and MSFT is always ethical and honest.

Except for the Java licence.

Oh, and Stacker.

And Netscape...

And... and...

Microsoft didn't do anything unethical with Netscape.


[quote]It's a bit like a casino; there's a house percentage and the only winners are those who cash out immediately after a big win. The rest take it up the ass eventually.[/qoute]

I was a casino craps dealer in Las Vegas for 6 years. And one thing I'll tell you is nobody forces anyone to play. And nobody forces them to play in the Microsoft casino. There are plenty of places to play.

Maybe. But the developer communities (well, execpt the kids who got free .NET infomercials desguised as for-credit courses) are maturing enough to see whose stewardship of technical standards can and can't be trusted.

The technical standards Microsoft uses aren't created by Microsoft. They are just adopted and promoted by Microsoft and are above reproach when it comes to trust.

[Cam]

Radar are you a Micrsoft employee. Or even Bill Gates hiself. I'm not sure what to think, I don't think I've ever heard anyone staunchly defend Micrsoft or Gates like this since...well ever.


But your insistance on comparing Bill Gates to Mother Theresa and Gandhi has got to stop. That's bullshit, just becuase he gives a small percentage of his income does not make the man a good person. Not saying he isn't but he isn't anywhere near the person Mother Theresa was. You lose credibility making such ridiculous statements. He just throws money at a couple groups who help the poor. Really similiar to Mother Theresa.

[hermit22]

Originally posted by Radar


The technical standards Microsoft uses aren't created by Microsoft. They are just adopted and promoted by Microsoft and are above reproach when it comes to trust.

Nope, they just adopt them, change them, and then close them so that no one else can use them.

I must admit, Radar, that your diatribe about the free market has made me want to research ways to counter you, because well-meaning rhetoric and everyday examples do not phase you. You just repeat the same thing. So my response is that I think you are completely wrong in your strict belief system, and I'll be thinking about an all-inclusive counter in a few days. I call it the slang approach (no offense, Slang).

PS - What part of California are you from? I'm from the Inland Empire. I believe the town I went to high school in is now run by a Libertarian mayor - not that that has any relevance, but the city's a pile of crap. It was before she got there though.

[warch]

In my opinion, Bill Gates is as good a human being as Mother Theresa or Ghandi.

He just took the balloon payment option.

[MaggieL]

Originally posted by Radar

The technical standards Microsoft uses aren't created by Microsoft. They are just adopted and promoted by Microsoft and are above reproach when it comes to trust.

Oh, absolutely. *snicker*. Like SMB.

Surely you've heard the phrase "Embrace, extend, extingish."

How does that Kool-Aid taste? Aren't you a little old for this "true believer" act? The LP *and* Microsoft? What's your stand on Santa Claus? :-)

I hope I run into some LP folks from CA soon that aren't space cadets, I'm starting to form a stereotype, especially after l'affaire Starchild.

[Radar]

But your insistance on comparing Bill Gates to Mother Theresa and Gandhi has got to stop. That's bullshit, just becuase he gives a small percentage of his income does not make the man a good person.

When I compared Bill Gates to Mother Theresa and Ghandi I was giving Mother Theresa and Ghandi more credit than they deserve. Gates has done far more to help poor people than both of them combined. And 3 BILLION dollars isnt' a small percentage of anything.

must admit, Radar, that your diatribe about the free market has made me want to research ways to counter you, because well-meaning rhetoric and everyday examples do not phase you

Feel free to research all you like. I have.

PS - What part of California are you from? I'm from the Inland Empire. I believe the town I went to high school in is now run by a Libertarian mayor - not that that has any relevance, but the city's a pile of crap. It was before she got there though.

I'm not from California, I just live here. I live in Gardena at the moment. And all of the inland empire is a pile of crap. I lived there too. I grew up in Las Vegas and was in the casino business for years.

How does that Kool-Aid taste? Aren't you a little old for this "true believer" act? The LP *and* Microsoft? What's your stand on Santa Claus? :-)

Maggie: I'm not acting and every single thing I've said about the Libertarian party and Microsoft is an indisputable fact. I don't believe in Santa Clause, but if you believe in socialism or believe that Microsoft is a monopoly you probably believe in Santa, the Easter Bunny, and Bigfoot.

I hope I run into some LP folks from CA soon that aren't space cadets, I'm starting to form a stereotype, especially after l'affaire Starchild.

Starchild is hardly representative of all Libertarians. I've only spoken to him a few times with regard to youth outreach stuff. I don't get to the bay area very much but he's well known up there. Dave Moloney was head of the CA state LP for awhile and he absolutely hated Starchild. I used to do a lot of work for Dave at the CA LP office. I'm far from being a space cadet. My feet are firmly on the ground and I have no need to lie. What I say is the truth whether you want to admit it or not.

Microsoft doesn't invent standards, they just adhere to them and promote other developers to do it too.

[Tobiasly]

Originally posted by Radar
Microsoft doesn't invent standards, they just adhere to them and promote other developers to do it too.

OK, now even I am starting to believe you're an MS employee or just having some trolling fun. You didn't have a comeback to Maggie's SMB comment; do you think they "adhered" to that standard?

What about their J++ java implementation? They adhered right to that standard as well, right?

Even simple things like Outlook's handling of email isn't standard. Their Kerberos implementation isn't standard. Their IE-specific HTML extensions aren't standard.

Need any more examples?

[perth]

Originally posted by Radar
When I compared Bill Gates to Mother Theresa and Ghandi I was giving Mother Theresa and Ghandi more credit than they deserve. Gates has done far more to help poor people than both of them combined. And 3 BILLION dollars isnt' a small percentage of anything.

but its still a percentage. gandhi and mother theresa devoted their *entire* lives to helping people. im not saying bill should give it all away. but until bill does something more than throw some money at charities once in a while dont make him out to be a greater humanitarian than mother theresa. bill sacrifices a small percentage of his money. mother theresa and gandhi sacrificed their *lives* for what they believed in. their contribution was far greater. that is unless you can put monetary value on what thwey did. can you?

~james

[elSicomoro]

Originally posted by Radar
When I compared Bill Gates to Mother Theresa and Ghandi I was giving Mother Theresa and Ghandi more credit than they deserve. Gates has done far more to help poor people than both of them combined.

What criteria do you use to determine who has done more in helping the poor? Certainly you use more than money, right?

Or do you?

I would like some evidence on how Bill Gates has done more to help poor people than Mother Teresa or Gandhi, including the criteria used to determine the "best helper," and any data analysis you might have used, such as ANOVA.

Thanks.

[jaguar]

Shit! These threads expand too fast for those who only come here 3 times a day to keep up!

Now let’s clear something up here.

I am to a degree, a libertarian. Hell even on the issue of guns I am ambivalent, thought I’d rather blow off my own kneecap than throw a bone to some of the attached philosophies that are thrown around here. But when it comes to social policy, irrespective of whether you support such policies, they are by their nature selfish. It's not about freedom, it's about access. I think *only* having a public system is bad, but *only* have a private system is worse, as hermit put it, it's too easy for people to fall though the cracks. It's not a freedom if you cannot afford it, a fact that is easy to overlook in the name of abstract idealism or pure selfishness. It is not about absolutes, it’s about the best possible compromise, because either extreme is terrible.

By paying tax we all support services we do not want or need, the fact we are willing to contribute to something that may help others with no benefit to ourselves I think is a great reflection on our society.

Now radar has done brilliant job of proving my point. After a few pages of rubbish about efficiency, the truth comes out: he thinks income tax is 'armed robbery'. I assume therefore that he is an anarchist, not a libertarian, because I do not understand how government is supposed to function effectively (or efficiently?) without tax revenue? Or should government be turned into a competitive business maybe? So what radar is actually miffed about his hard earned money might be used to pay for someone else's healthcare, without his permission. As for a rebuttal for that - see above.

And last I checked Radar, I was talking about the system here which I described, not Canadian healthcare, so please, read what I posted and post a rebuttal to that, not what you assumed I wrote.

Windows 2000 is the best operating system in the world. It's more stable than Linux and more user friendly. It's the most tested and secure piece of software ever created

Bullshit. Sorry.

The rest of your post is a nice attempt to dig your head in the sand and pretend that theory, not business reality, is reality. Ironic.