Islamo-Fascism Awareness Week

[Radar]

One thing you, and the Arabs must admit, is Israel is going nowhere. It will never go away and nothing they can do will change this. Israel will NEVER stop defending themselves or retaliating with deadly force when attacked with deadly force.

You are correct, the deaths must stop. The only way this will happen is when the aggressors (so-called Palestinians) stop killing Jews. You must realize that the fate of the so-called Palestinians rests in their own hands. As long as they kill Jews, the deaths on both sides will continue. If they stop, there won't be deaths on either side.

Until the day that the so-called Palestinians do drop their weapons and stop calling for the destruction of Israel, they will continue to die down to the very last one of them. Israel is better at killing so this could very well be a reality if the so-called Palestinians don't get it through their heads that Israel is here forever and for every Jew they kill, 10 of their people will die.

I'm all for peace in that region. I want the killing to stop. It will never stop unless the so-called Palestinians stop first. Israel has given all it will give. The so-called Palestinians can take it and have peace, or refuse it, continue to kill Jews and eventually be destroyed completely.

The question is when will the so-called Palestinians care more about the lives of their children than they do about killing Jews?

[Ibby]

Okay, so... You think israel is nothing but a beleaguered defender, nothing but a victim? That there is no conceivable reason that the palestinians are attacking them, except that they exist?


Oh, and what happened to, any land rightfully won in war is land owned? If that's so true, why do you so deny palestine's ability to, conceivably, fight israel until they cede territory?

[Radar]

I never said that the so-called Palestinians didn't have a reason to attack Israel. That reason is mindless hatred, racism, a false sense of being a victim or of having had something taken from them that they never actually owned, etc. They hate Israel because Israel is successful and they are not. They hate Israel because Israel is the land of the Jews and it's the only free nation in the entire middle-east.

If they declare war against Israel, they will lose. Israel would be within their rights to give them a chance to leave and kill each and every single living thing remaining and take ALL of the land.

They can learn to live with what they have, or they can die and get nothing. The choice is their own.

[piercehawkeye45]

Ugh, I have already said that the Palestinians will not drop down their weapons unless their is some sort of miracle so if you do want to talk about solutions instead of pointing fingers, we will both have to work with that premise.

For your side, when you mean Israel will not go away what do you mean by that? Do you mean the Jewish state of Israel will not go away, the state called Israel will not go away but it can let go of its Jewish and Zionist status, or do you mean the Jews will not go away?

Working backwards, I will never be accepting of a solution that will kick the Jews out to the Mediterranean Sea. I do not believe the Jewish state should be there, but the individual Jews should not be kicked out just like the Palestinians should not have been kicked out of their homes. I would content with a Palestinian/Jewish state called Israel that is not most importantly a Jewish homeland but a state for Jews, Muslims, Christian, and others to live together equally but I would much rather the name be changed but that is not a big factor. If you are saying that Israel will not give up its "Jewish State" status, then I am afraid genocide for an undetermined side will be inevitable and I am hoping we both can agree that we want to avoid that.

Now like I said, we need to start with a premise that the Palestinians will not give up their guns if the situation remains unchanged or else we are not dealing with reality so I will try to go through the possibilities I see as reality.


Like I said earlier, I can not accept the destruction of Israel in the sense of kicking the Jews out and that the remain of Israel as a "Jewish homeland" will result in genocide so hopefully we are talking about the last possibility.

Would you be willing to accept a Israeli/Palestinian state where Jews, Muslims, Christians, and others would be treated as equals, which is only possible if Israel gives up its "Jewish homeland" status? I realize that this is very borderline unrealistic but I feel it is the most effective solution and basically the only hope for peace. If Israel opens it borders and the standard of living for Palestinians rise dramatically, I am almost positive that the terrorist attacks will not only go down, but the peaceful Palestinian people will start to turn against them because of more profitable options, which is what you want.

I can go into more details later but if you want peace, I recommend you look into the one-state solution as the last hope for the region and if you have any other opinions except "the Palestinians give up their guns" because I have repeatably said that is not going to happen please give them.

[Radar]

The Zionist and Jewish State of Israel will NEVER go away. Jews will NEVER give up their homeland. This is not up for debate.

Zionist = Jewish. Anyone who says otherwise is a liar. The only Jews who oppose Zionism (a Jewish State) are either self-hating Jews (like those raised in Iran) or the rabbis who don't disagree that Israel is owned legitimately but who say the Jews aren't supposed to return to Israel until the coming of the messiah.

Since we've established that the Zionist state of Israel is here to stay, that it has the power to defeat each and every one of its neighbors, and that it will always use deadly force against those who use deadly force against it, we can look to how the violence can stop.

I've told you that fire will always burn you and that this fire is here for eternity. When you put your hand in fire you get burned. How many times do you need to get burned before you stop reaching into the fire? Does it take the fire burning your entire body to death? Should I pity those who are stupid to keep reaching into the fire when they get burned? Can the people who keep getting burned be taken seriously when they claim to be victims?

Israel treats the so-called Palestinians better than they are treated in any Arab state. Non Jewish men and women are allowed to live, work, vote, and hold political office in Israel including Muslims and Christians. Jewish men and women (or any women for that matter) aren't allowed to vote in Arab countries. In fact in most Arab countries, Arab people aren't allowed to vote because they are either brutal dictatorships or monarchies.

Israel is already fair and generous to the so-called Palestinians. In fact there is only one right that Jewish people have above other people and that is the right of return. Non-Jews must do paperwork to become a citizen.

So again, we are at an impasse. Israel will kill those who kill Israeli people. Israel isn't going anywhere ever. The only way to stop getting killed by Israel or to get any kind of mercy is to stop killing Israeli people. End of story.

Until this happens, the so-called Palestinian people will continue to die in much larger numbers than the Jews they kill. Eventually they will run out of people to kill Jews or they will learn that when you reach into fire, you get burned.

[Aliantha]

You do nothing to create empathy among others for Israel or Jews Radar. All you do is create enmity by sermonizing your point which seems to be the same point ad nauseum with different words, while belittling every person who tries to discuss the issue with you.

I wonder why they bother?

My theory is that most rational people on this planet realize that there is no absolute right or wrong, and that 'god' didn't give anyone any piece of land and that things change in the world regardless of who likes it and who doesn't, so therefore they feel a moral responsibility to show you the error in your thinking before you, like all other extremists come to a shattering end.

If Israel is so unwilling to bend then it must surely break. As with Palestine. I really don't care if you think Israel can 'crush' their enemies or not. The fact is, without the US on its side, Israel will more likely be the crushee if it comes to a conflict in the middle east without US and British forces.

So you go ahead and pontificate all you like, but the only person you're fooling is yourself.

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by Radar

The Zionist and Jewish State of Israel will NEVER go away. Jews will NEVER give up their homeland. This is not up for debate.

Then let the genocide begin.

Originally Posted by Radar

Zionist = Jewish. Anyone who says otherwise is a liar.

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.

Judaism is the religion of the Jewish people, based on principles and ethics embodied in the Hebrew Bible (Tanakh) and the Talmud.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism

Zionism is an international political movement that supports a homeland for the Jewish People in the Land of Israel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism

Since this shows that they are not interchangeable I guess these definition are lying to us. Damn Wikipedia and its unreliability.

Originally Posted by Radar

The only Jews who oppose Zionism (a Jewish State) are either self-hating Jews (like those raised in Iran) or the rabbis who don't disagree that Israel is owned legitimately but who say the Jews aren't supposed to return to Israel until the coming of the messiah.

Shut the fuck up. You do not know the views of Jews who oppose the Israeli state so stop pretending you do. Many Jews oppose Israel for the same reasons Dana and I do.

[Radar]

Originally Posted by Aliantha

You do nothing to create empathy among others for Israel or Jews Radar. All you do is create enmity by sermonizing your point which seems to be the same point ad nauseum with different words, while belittling every person who tries to discuss the issue with you.

I wonder why they bother?

My theory is that most rational people on this planet realize that there is no absolute right or wrong, and that 'god' didn't give anyone any piece of land and that things change in the world regardless of who likes it and who doesn't, so therefore they feel a moral responsibility to show you the error in your thinking before you, like all other extremists come to a shattering end.

If Israel is so unwilling to bend then it must surely break. As with Palestine. I really don't care if you think Israel can 'crush' their enemies or not. The fact is, without the US on its side, Israel will more likely be the crushee if it comes to a conflict in the middle east without US and British forces.

So you go ahead and pontificate all you like, but the only person you're fooling is yourself.

Whether you choose to admit it or not, the whole world isn't gray. There are black and white issues. There are true dichotomies in this world, if you can't recognize them, you should seek professional help because you can't grasp reality.

Israel can crush every Arab nation in the middle-east without any help from America or the UK. For the record, I haven't been "pontificating", I've been stating facts.

FACTS

• The Zionist nation of Israel will never go away.
  
• Israel will use deadly force against those who kill Israeli Jews.
  
• Israel will use any level of force necessary to defend itself up to and including the complete destruction of those who would destroy it.
  
• Israel doesn't practice apartheid.
  
• Israel is the only free and democratic nation in the middle-east.

Since these are the facts, the so-called Palestinian people can choose to accept these facts, or continue to attack Jews and eventually find themselves completely destroyed.

If refusing to give up their country is being inflexible than so be it. Israel has as much legitimacy as any other country and will defend itself like any other country or better. America would destroy any nation that tried to constantly attack it or claim it had no legitimate right to exist.

I hate to see the suffering on both sides of this dispute, but the fact remains that each and every single death on both sides is a result of the aggression of the so-called Palestinians. All of this suffering is at their hands. When they stop killing Jews, the suffering will end, and not a second before.

[Aliantha]

FACTS

The Zionist nation of Israel will go away when they're all extinct.
Any nation will use deadly force against those who kill their own
Any nation will any level of force necessary to defent itself...blah blah blah
Israel is not the only nation that doesn't practice apartheid
Israel is far from free although it may be democratic

Blah blah blah...

Through the course of this thread, you've proved yourself to be other than a master debater. In fact, so far all I can see is a one trick pony.

[Radar]

I see. The extent of your debate skills is "nuh uh! blah blah blah"

[Aliantha]

I rebutted your facts. They just weren't that exceptional Radar. Just more of the same rhetoric you've been spewing for a number of pages now.

Like I said, a one trick pony.

[Radar]

You can't rebut facts. You merely lied and claimed they were false. You've disproven nothing.

I heard about a trick you do with a pony, but we'll save that for another discussion.

[piercehawkeye45]

You can't assume an Israeli-centric world.

You could basically write the same thing for an Arab-centric view.

FACTS

• Arabs can never allow a Jewish state in the Middle East
• They will continue to fight, no matter the odds against them
• Blah, blah

It just solidifies the fact that there is no solution that doesn't involve hurting one side.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Originally Posted by Aliantha

You do nothing to create empathy among others for Israel or Jews Radar. All you do is create enmity by sermonizing your point which seems to be the same point ad nauseum with different words, while belittling every person who tries to discuss the issue with you.

I wonder why they bother?

I think it's because of a great lack of understanding: they can't understand how wrong they are, siding with the antidemocracy here.

My theory is that most rational people on this planet realize that there is no absolute right or wrong, and that 'god' didn't give anyone any piece of land and that things change in the world regardless of who likes it and who doesn't, so therefore they feel a moral responsibility to show you the error in your thinking before you, like all other extremists come to a shattering end.

Is this another way of saying to us that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is some kind of vice?

If Israel is so unwilling to bend then it must surely break. As with Palestine. I really don't care if you think Israel can 'crush' their enemies or not. The fact is, without the US on its side, Israel will more likely be the crushee if it comes to a conflict in the middle east without US and British forces.

Wasn't that way in 1947 or 1956. Any reason to think something fundamental has changed? For that is what it would take. In extremis, Israel will use its nukes on enemy states' population centers, making the peace of the desert. So the enemy states must somehow not provoke Israel's... Shabbos punch.

Quite bluntly, Israel has been willing to bend, and as bluntly, Israel doesn't have a lot of bending room, while the Palestinian Authority's position seems to be that they haven't anything to lose by being unbending. If the fighting were up to Israel and the Palestinians solely, it would have been long over by now. The Palestinians have been kept as a catspaw to conduct a protracted war by proxy. It is easy to see who is keeping the Palestinians without creative options: Jordan and Syria. Lebanon I'm not quite sure whether it's Lebanon or really Syria -- not enough data.

[Aliantha]

Extremism in any form is always harmful to someone.

If it's better to harm someone else in your extreme pursuit of liberty (and that's a debatable statement in itself) then you're no better than any other extremist. You're just another wolf in sheeps clothing.

With regard to the last part of your post UG, with respect, I'm going to leave that go. I think it's been debated long and hard on this forum and many others.

Anyway, that's enough from me. You lot can have at it from here on in.