Interesting graphs and charts department

[henry quirk]

"I've seen roads in PA and NJ deteriorate in 3 months so they weren't passable at more than 25 mph."

Here in S Louisiana the roads are terrible: terrible with gov oversight.

I'm thinkin' folks might do a better job of it w/out incompetent pols & greedy contracters.

#

"grew up with a town volunteer Fire Department who put out many grass fires around houses that burned down."

Made my point for me: thanks.

#

"The fire department usually has an ambulance with full time EMTs

Here, we got Acadian Ambulance. Privately owned. We seem to get along just fine w/out the gov in this area.

#

"Because it becomes too fucking expensive when only a few are in it"

Again: you make my point. If folks, in large numbers want sumthin' (like unimployment ins) then the market (other folks) will provide. If so few folks actually want it that it has to be mandated, by technocrats with lent power, to 'be', well: you get my drift.

#

"Right, they wouldn't come to rely on it, they'd just die like they used to."

Think it through: if you know your golden years are all on you then, mebbe, you make an effort to provide for those golden years when you're younger, you know, the way lots of folks do 'now' even with SS existin'.

#

"Fine when you boy is running 106 fever send out for bids."

Think it through: I've already done my homework. When he had an 'issue' I took him where the treatment was available and the reasonable, and 'I' paid the bill, not taxpayers.

#

"I don't need a charity but where do these people who do find one?"

On-line, phone book, a church, city hall, etc.

A tiny bit of effort renders great reward.

Oh, wait, you expect the charity to consult a crystal ball and go to the needy, yeah?

#

"thousands of people on the streets because they've no place to go."

Where & why are there 'thousands' on the streets with no place to go?

#

"I'm not even counting the ones who prefer the street to shelters because it's safer."

Where are these unsafe shelters?

#

"I'll bet for different reasons."

No doubt.

#

"OK, I googled Associated Catholic Charities. It gives me Baltimore and NYC as a footnote."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Charities

And that link doesn't even begin to cover all the locations.

#

"Cato or Brutus didn't write it, you did."

No, I didn't: https://books.google.com/books?id=t3...nobis.&f=false

http://lf-oll.s3.amazonaws.com/title...1_EBk_v6.0.pdf

#

"The internet says you're wrong"

No, it doesn't.

#

"you are used to being wrong."

Please, expose my errors, list 'em, shame me.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by henry quirk

"I've seen roads in PA and NJ deteriorate in 3 months so they weren't passable at more than 25 mph."

Here in S Louisiana the roads are terrible: terrible with gov oversight.

I'm thinkin' folks might do a better job of it w/out incompetent pols & greedy contracters.

Who? Who's going to fix the roads? Who's going to buy the equipment and materials?

"grew up with a town volunteer Fire Department who put out many grass fires around houses that burned down."

Made my point for me: thanks.

Oh, I didn't realize your point was let 'em burn and try to keep it from spreading.

"The fire department usually has an ambulance with full time EMTs

Here, we got Acadian Ambulance. Privately owned. We seem to get along just fine w/out the gov in this area.

So you just pay whatever they say you owe, we also have private ambulances that charge as much as the lawyers who chase them.

"Because it becomes too fucking expensive when only a few are in it"

Again: you make my point. If folks, in large numbers want sumthin' (like unimployment ins) then the market (other folks) will provide. If so few folks actually want it that it has to be mandated, by technocrats with lent power, to 'be', well: you get my drift.

So you think if 40% want it someone will provide it cheaper than the currant system? 60%? 80% And still make a profit? Not a chance. A corporation rich enough to fund that kind of operation wouldn't be bothered with that piss ant operation. To make it worth their while nobody could afford it except people who don't need it.

"Right, they wouldn't come to rely on it, they'd just die like they used to."

Think it through: if you know your golden years are all on you then, mebbe, you make an effort to provide for those golden years when you're younger, you know, the way lots of folks do 'now' even with SS existin'.

Most people in the real world couldn't come up with enough to pay a surprise $500 bill over and above normal living expenses. I don't think the % of people building an investment portfolio for retirement is very high.

"Fine when you boy is running 106 fever send out for bids."

Think it through: I've already done my homework. When he had an 'issue' I took him where the treatment was available and the reasonable, and 'I' paid the bill, not taxpayers.

The last time I was in the hospital I was there from 6AM to about 1:30PM and the bill was over $175,000... +$19 to park. The taxpayers didn't pay that either. If the taxpayers were paying it would have probably been in the $30,000 range. If you don't have to worry about that shit you must be pretty rich.

"I don't need a charity but where do these people who do find one?"

On-line, phone book, a church, city hall, etc.

A tiny bit of effort renders great reward.

Oh, wait, you expect the charity to consult a crystal ball and go to the needy, yeah?

You're dreaming, every available resource is turning people away for lack off capacity.

"thousands of people on the streets because they've no place to go."

Where & why are there 'thousands' on the streets with no place to go?

The last numbers I saw were a little over 200,000 homeless citizens, but it's a tough area to get exact numbers.

"I'm not even counting the ones who prefer the street to shelters because it's safer."

Where are these unsafe shelters?

Now I'm trying to figure out if you're fucking with me or you're really that out of touch with reality.

"OK, I googled Associated Catholic Charities. It gives me Baltimore and NYC as a footnote."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Charities

And that link doesn't even begin to cover all the locations.

OK, where are they?

"Cato or Brutus didn't write it, you did."

No, I didn't:

Yes you did, those dudes were long dead when the Cellar was created, and I doubt either one had a computer. You wrote it.

"The internet says you're wrong"

No, it doesn't.

Show me.

"you are used to being wrong."

Please, expose my errors, list 'em, shame me.

I already have, just read everything you've written about the future.

[henry quirk]

"Oh, I didn't realize your point was let 'em burn and try to keep it from spreading."

My point: folks can 'do' w/out a gov's direction.

#

"So you just pay whatever they say you owe"

Kinda like you do when you go to the grocery, or pay taxes. Difference is you can shop around for lower prices with groceries. Try that with taxes.

#

"we also have private ambulances that charge as much as the lawyers who chase them."

That's the way it works, yeah.

#


"So you think if 40% want it someone will provide it cheaper than the currant system? 60%? 80% And still make a profit? Not a chance. A corporation rich enough to fund that kind of operation wouldn't be bothered with that piss ant operation. To make it worth their while nobody could afford it except people who don't need it."

If folks want it, they can have it w/out the gov. I never said it would be cheaper.

Me:I don't want it. Can't see why I should pay a dime into it. You 'do' want it; you pay for it.

#

"Most people in the real world couldn't come up with enough to pay a surprise $500 bill over and above normal living expenses."

And SS, somehow covers this? Mebbe folks coulda just kept that SS deposit in the first place, saving it as it suited them, investing it as they liked.

#

"The last time I was in the hospital I was there from 6AM to about 1:30PM and the bill was over $175,000... +$19 to park."

You had to pay to park? What a rip. None of the places I use make me pay to park. My last bill was two grand. I paid in installments. You can do that if you negotiate. If I'd still had my neat lil catastrophic policy (the one the ACA nullified) the bill woulda been handled that way (privately, w/out the gov).

#

"You're dreaming, every available resource is turning people away for lack off capacity."

Evidence, please.

#

"The last numbers I saw were a little over 200,000 homeless citizens, but it's a tough area to get exact numbers."

Why are they homeless?

#

"OK, where are they?"

Catholic Charitites? In every major city of every state; all over the world.

#

"You wrote it."

Cut & paste is not composition.

#

"Show me."

How? Oh, wait, I did that already by way of the two links.

#

"I already have, just read everything you've written about the future."

The future: by defintion, hasn't happened yet. How can I be wrong (or you, right) about that?

[sexobon]

Originally Posted by henry quirk

… Mebbe folks coulda just kept that SS deposit in the first place, saving it as it suited them, investing it as they liked. ...

You can if you demonstrate that you have a viable alternative to SS so you don't become a moocher later.

There was a Staff Sergeant in my Special Forces unit (you know, those people trained to do insurgency operations) who was a savvy investor. He reasoned that he was losing money on SS contributions versus investing it. He got a lawyer, sued the government for taking SS deductions from his military pay and WON! He showed me his Leave and Earnings Statement (paycheck stub) and there was NO SS deduction.

A similar situation exists with healthcare. You don't have to have insurance if you have a viable alternative so you don't become a moocher. I don't have to have healthcare insurance. I have VA medical coverage, which is not insurance; but, is already recognized under ACA as a viable [minimally acceptable] alternative. I don't have to get an individual exemption.

Those who are paying into SS and/or healthcare insurance can find a way out of it if they can demonstrate responsibility towards their future. The majority of those complaining about paying into those programs don't have viable alternatives and are just self serving latent moochers.

[Undertoad]

After some Google research, and years in various libertarian movements, and the acquaintance of a gentleman who is a semi-hero in the anti-tax movement and who spent two and a half years in the fed prison for his efforts -- I do not believe there is currently any reasonable opt-out of SS, other than religious/clergy exemption.

~

It's true that, historically, almost all private investment outperforms SS returns. Even shitty investment. Here is a CATO paper that points out:

If workers who retired in 2011 had been allowed to invest the employee half of the Social Security payroll tax over their working lifetime, they would retire with more income than if they relied on Social Security. Indeed, even in the worst-case scenario—a low-wage worker who invested entirely in bonds—the benefits from private investment would equal those from traditional Social Security.

[henry quirk]

Mebbe I need to seek one and end my 'criminal' ways.

nah

#

"moochers"

I just call 'em parasites.

##

"historically, almost all private investment outperforms SS returns"

Yep.

The objection, of course, is: 'but folks won't invest or save on their own!' which may be the case but isn't relevant (unless you wanna investigate 'why' folks may not self-preserve).

[sexobon]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

… I do not believe there is currently any reasonable opt-out of SS, other than religious/clergy exemption. ...

They can go back to where they wished they'd come from.

Originally Posted by henry quirk

… The objection, of course, is: 'but folks won't invest or save on their own!' which may be the case but isn't relevant (unless you wanna investigate 'why' folks may not self-preserve).

When others have to pay to preserve them, that's what's done.

[henry quirk]

"Who? Who's going to fix the roads? Who's going to buy the equipment and materials?"

Who does these things 'now'? The same folks (and a few others) would do it w/out gov oversight. What, people can't organize themselves, pursue common goals w/out 'finer clay' directin' 'em?

##

"When others have to pay to preserve them, that's what's done."

It's deeper than that. Consider: why do some go to great lengths to not rely on others? Why do some go to great lengths to force others to support them? What's the foundational difference between the two?

Why does one live with hardship knowing hardship is the price for autonomy while another not only runs madly from hardship (and autonomy) but works hard to push a leash on his fellows?

Why do some wanna take care of themselves while others want to be taken care of?

[sexobon]

"It's deeper than that. …" which may be the case but isn't relevant (unless you believe the wants of the one, or the few, outweigh the needs of the many).

[henry quirk]

"the wants of the one, or the few, outweigh the needs of the many"

I think one gets to decide if he's gonna be relegated to bein' 'resource' for the many.

I think the many can go pound sand.

[sexobon]

Then I expect the feeling will be mutual and what you want will never be achieved since we don't practice population control.

[henry quirk]

cuz it'd be 'wrong' or sumthin'

[sexobon]

Crunch the numbers. You won't get them all before they get you. Remember the Alamo.

[henry quirk]

Dismember the enemy.

[sexobon]

You remind me of Father Miguel Hidalgo, revered as the Father of his Country, who began the Mexican independence movement on Sept. 16, 1810. Hidalgo was a well intentioned man of imagination and courage who proved to be an inept organizer and leader. Hidalgo was captured and executed within 11 months. The prevailing story is that he was killed by firing squad, then decapitated, the morning of July 30, 1811. His head was hung from one corner of the regional grain exchange market building, which was being used as a prison, where it remained for 10 years until the end of the Mexican War of Independence in 1821. Like Hidalgo, if your preferred form of governance could ever come into being, you'd never see it.

YMMV.