View on the recent Gaza/Israel stikes

[sugarpop]

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

Sugarpop, you're trying to tell us the Israelis have no right to survive. Stop such genocidal nonsense yesterday if not sooner. Antisemitism rubs Adolf Hitler's runny mental shit all over your soul, and you can't get clean.

No I'm not. Show me where I said that.
And I'm not antisemite, I'm antiZionist. There is a big difference. HUGE.

The Palestinians are being used as catspaws by the Muslim nations in the Middle East to fight a proxy war with Israel, over a land the Jews were in before ever there was a Muslim. If it was just between the Palestinians and the Israeli Jews, the fight would have been over by the 1956 Suez Crisis. Blame Jordan, Iran, Egypt and Syria: these are the nations that either still don't want peace, valuing their feud with the Jews over any peace and prosperity, or acted that way at one time -- Egypt's cleaned up its act most.

That is not accurate. As others have pointed out, Jews were not the first people on that land. It sounds to me like you don't have a clue as to what you are talking about with regards to the rest.

Consequently to all this, my sympathy for the poor Palestinians remains just about zip. They have to hang all their assholes, yesterday. They aren't doing that. What do you say about people who refuse to hang their assholes? Does the idea that asshole-sympathizing may be in play here come in at all, do you suppose?

Whatever. I came to the conclusion that you and I will NEVER see eye to eye... on anything.

[Undertoad]

Hamas steals UN food aid

Wheeee

[sugarpop]

It's just a big fat mess over there. Leave them be and let them destroy one another.

[xoxoxoBruce]

If Israel should be condemned for oppressing the Palestinians by cutting them off from the world, what about their neighbor Egypt?

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Many antisemites attempt to cloak themselves under the allegedly more respectable mantle of antiZionism -- but their fraud is transparent. Frankly, I reckon antiZionist Jews to be completely out of touch with their own people's interests: it is manifest that statelessness is a very dangerous condition to be in in Europe. With a Jewish State around, abuse of Jews has much declined -- is that not historically demonstrated?

As for yelling about "show me where I said that," SP, need I tell you that when you write words, there are thoughts behind the words -- whether these thoughts are acknowledged consciously or not. Ideas birth words -- and it is not difficult to see what those ideas are. Nor is it very complicated in your case to see that your words leave a scent of the anti-Semite on you. Anti-Zionism is, well, the realm of two schools of thought, and I wouldn't give two bits for the both of them taken together: stupid, unpractical Jews who can't see their own people's best interest in the mortal world, and stupid and brutal bigotry against Jews from outsiders. I'd not ally myself with either silly bunch.

As others have pointed out, Jews were not the first people on that land. It sounds to me like you don't have a clue. . .

Here you show a mighty misreading of what I actually said -- you're listening too much to what you were unfortunate enough to think I said, instead: I did not say "first people," I said "the Jews were in before there was ever a Muslim." The Jews have a defensible prior claim, if you want to assign sacredness to who's there before whomever else. Stop kidding yourself, or I will both chew on you like a dog toy and insult your intelligence the while. You aren't winning this. Not ever.

[Aliantha]

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

Here you show a mighty misreading of what I actually said -- you're listening too much to what you were unfortunate enough to think I said, instead: I did not say "first people," I said "the Jews were in before there was ever a Muslim." The Jews have a defensible prior claim, if you want to assign sacredness to who's there before whomever else. Stop kidding yourself, or I will both chew on you like a dog toy and insult your intelligence the while. You aren't winning this. Not ever.

So by your logic here UG, you'd support indigenous American people blowing up non-indigenous simply because they have a 'defensible prior claim' to the land?

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

It's raining.

And so, this Michael Yon article sets forth yet another exigesis on just how those in authority in Palestine remain spherical assholes on the grandest scale available to them. To support this kind of behavior over that of the Israelis, whose forbearance should be the stuff of legend, shows you in the worst possible light, SP: as a complete whore for all that is evil.

{Edited at Classicman's suggestion: and before you blow up at me, read the rest of this thread, particularly post #268. Remember which contender in this strife is the democracy, and which are not.}

"Whore for evil" is something none can say of me. There are those, yet swimming in the great darkness, even yet unenlightened, who will complain about me all afternoon long, with an appendix after supper -- but one thing they cannot say is that UG attaches to evil. I scourge it. You don't feel like being scourged, then don't even be mistaken for an evildoer.

Now tell me: was this really what you set out to do??

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Aliantha, just why do you insist that somehow I have to be as rigid and bullheaded as Radar??

[Aliantha]

Just a simple question UG.

[classicman]

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

as a complete whore for all that is evil.

Edit that before its too late. That is/was completely uncalled for.

As an east coast liberal Zionist Jew, I am totally with UG on this one.

The creation of state of Israel was recognized by the international community with the partition of Palestine.

And the state of Israel has attempted to make peace with its neighbors for 50+ years and has succeeded with its more moderate Arab neighbors - Egypt and Jordan.

It sought a two state solution with the Palestinians in the 90s, only to have Arrafat kill the deal.

It sought to make peace with the Hamas by unilaterally withdrawing from Gaza as a first step to a broader solution, only to be faced with 3 years of continuous rocket attacks into its southern cities.

Hamas exists solely to continue to wage war against Israel. It is at the very heart of its existence.

I would agree that Israel's response was heavy handed and did not help create an environment that could bring the parties to the negotiating table.

When Hamas is ready to recognize Israel's right to exist and disavow terrorism, I think they and the Palestinian people will find a willing partner.

And both sides will need to make hard choices and compromises.

[classicman]

Perhaps Hamas is just a willing pawn in a very ugly game.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Originally Posted by classicman

Edit that before its too late. That is/was completely uncalled for.

I know I'm speaking harshly. I'm trying to tell her, in the strongest possible terms, not to be one of those. It would not be acceptable conduct. She can, I think, still pull back.

And to Redux: thanks.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Originally Posted by Aliantha

Just a simple question UG.

And my simple answer, as you're probably figuring, is "No." Now how 'bout my simple question?

It might be noticed that the overall pattern of these brawls is the Palestinians-in-charge-of-carrying-on-a-pointless-feud fire the first shot. Looks like picking a fight, no? Anybody think too highly of that? Anyone praise it? Anyone believe in it, or that good will come of it?

[Aliantha]

My very personal opinion is that both sides are out of line and even though the Jewish nation might have a valid claim to the land, obviously someone else thinks they don't.

Thousands of years of fighting over it haven't managed to change a thing.

I don't think it's working for them. They all need to find a better answer, unfortunately, I don't believe either side really wants to when it's all said and done. I think this war has become a way of life and will never end. Debating the issue is pointless because words mean nothing compared to the number of lives lost over long held bitterness and hatred.

My point however was that if Israel can say, 'We were here first, so it's ours', then there are many other nations who have the same claim over land which has been taken from them and yet I don't see too many other countries jumping to their defense. Even my own country could have the same issue but we're not blowing each other up, even though we don't share the same religious beliefs. Not by a long shot.