Vaccination & epidemic - Page 19

DanaC · 06-08-2009, 08:18 AM

I would suggest, with the greatest of respect, that posting that amount of an article online may broach some copyright rules. I don't know for sure; but I'd advise caution.

TheMercenary · 06-08-2009, 08:19 AM

Good point.

classicman · 06-08-2009, 09:00 AM

Maybe that should be removed and perhaps handled via PM for whomever wants THAT specific info. The last thing we need is any more......issues.

Clodfobble · 07-01-2009, 08:31 AM

Quote:

Press Complaints Commission Orders Sunday Times to Remove MMR Journalist's Stories on Dr. Wakefield from Paper's Web Site

Work by Reporter Brian Deer is at Center of Investigation Being Conducted by Medical Regulators

(Austin, Texas) - The Press Complaints Commission (PCC) of London, an independent body that oversees journalism fairness in the UK, has issued an interim order calling for the Sunday Times to remove stories written by Brian Deer about Dr. Andrew Wakefield from its web site. Dr. Wakefield had filed an extensive complaint with the PCC regarding errors of fact in Deer's reportage on the MMR vaccine and its possible relationship to autism. The General Medical Council (GMC) in the UK is presently hearing evidence involving Dr. Wakefield and two of his colleagues following a complaint to the GMC by Deer himself. The PCC decision today appears to indicate there are questions about the accuracy of the Deer stories.

The PCC complaint by Dr. Wakefield provides clear evidence that Deer's allegations of "data fixing" by him are false. The complaint also accused Deer of an undisclosed conflict of interest since Deer also failed to reveal in his articles that he was the person who made the original complaint to the GMC, misleading the newspaper's readers over the accuracy of his reporting.

jinx · 07-01-2009, 07:55 PM

Huge surprise there...

Undertoad · 07-22-2009, 10:58 AM

Bumped. I finally got around to looking at the studies

BMJ 2001 Jul;323(7305):163-4
and
N Engl J Med. 2003 Mar 6;348(10):951-4

and it appears Pie has sent me the original studies, and not the criticism of them. Pie, what I have is BMJ edition 322, not 323, and NEJM 347, not 348.

I read the studies, or at least what I could understand of them without 300-level courses in statistics. In the NEJM study, roughly of 80% of about 500,000 children in Denmark were MMR-vaccinated, and roughly 80% of autism cases in the same group of children were of MMR-vaccinated children. (IOW, 20% of autism cases were in non-vaccinated children.)

It will be interesting to see how this is criticized.

Clodfobble · 07-22-2009, 03:35 PM

No one ever claimed that the MMR is the sole and exclusive trigger of autism. It's not just about the MMR, it's about the aggressiveness of the entire schedule, and the way vaccinations are intended to work. Even vaccine opponents aren't sure why the MMR seems to have a higher risk than other vaccines.

It is, in short, all about the adjuvants. The immune response is an extremely complex biological process, but in layman's terms, it's somewhat like this: the immune system works in stages. The first antibody response is supposed to be from IgA antibodies, which live almost exclusively in the lungs and digestive tract. This is how most diseases enter the body. The IgA antibodies are the ones that organize the overall response to the pathogen, and call in the IgE antibodies (which are what give you a typical allergic response of itchy eyes, sneezing, etc.) to do the dirty work of fighting the pathogen. They also are the ones that best "remember" the pathogen for the future, so that the body has immunity.

When you inject the pathogen directly into the bloodstream, you completely bypass this IgA part of the immune system (and that is one reason why blood-borne diseases are usually so much more devastating than airborne.) This is an acknowledged drawback of injected vaccines, and it is precisely why they include an adjuvant with the injection, usually the heavy metal aluminum. An adjuvant is a substance which, for an unknown reason, hyperstimulates the IgE response. We can't get the IgAs to remember the pathogen, since we've excluded them from the process, so instead we just throw the IgEs into overdrive, significantly overproduce antibodies to fight the pathogen, and that way plenty are left over after the disease is defeated. But these antibodies die off over time, and this is why injections don't provide lifelong immunity while getting the actual disease does, and why we need booster shots after a few years.

Is it really so hard to imagine that artificially stimulating the IgE antibodies would lead them to be more likely to mistake harmless substances (like, say, peanut proteins) as pathogens, thus creating an allergy to peanuts? It's not just about the MMR, and it's not just about autism. All autoimmune disorders are sharply on the rise, because we are screwing with our immune system and forcing it to work in ways it isn't designed to. The only reason the autism advocates are the only ones screaming is because having a kid with a severe peanut allergy just isn't that big a deal (I know, I have a stepson with one.) All the lesser diseases, while they might be lifestyle-altering, still leave you with your kid intact. But they are all a reflection of the problem--asthma, allergies, autism, ADHD, celiac disease, type 1 diabetes, rheumatoid arthritis...

Incidentally, it's quite possible to administer vaccines in an airborne fashion, breathing them in through a mask. When they do this, no adjuvant is needed, and indeed, that's how they do vaccinations in Africa, because they have to re-use all their medical equipment down there, and re-using needles in an AIDS-ridden population is a big no-no. Guess who doesn't have an autism epidemic like we do? Of course, detractors will say that's because African doctors are too stupid to recognize autism when they see it, and African parents are too stupid to know whether their child knows how to talk or not.

Aliantha · 07-22-2009, 05:04 PM

I don't think most people think African parents are too stupid. Possibly not educated enough to pick the symptoms, and most likely not wealthy enough to seek help anyway.

Happy Monkey · 07-22-2009, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

Is it really so hard to imagine that...

It's not hard to imagine, no.

Clodfobble · 07-22-2009, 06:43 PM

Yes, very cute HM. There are studies to back it up, but that shit's just not available for free on the internet, sorry. If you're interested, it's not hard to find books on the subject.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aliantha

I don't think most people think African parents are too stupid. Possibly not educated enough to pick the symptoms, and most likely not wealthy enough to seek help anyway.

As I alluded, it does not take an education to determine that your child is or is not speaking, or is or is not smacking themselves in the face all day long. The symptoms are subtle at the age of 2-3. They are not subtle at ages 4, 5, 6, or all the rest of the years of their lives as this disease continues to affect them.

Aliantha · 07-22-2009, 06:49 PM

A lot of African people who live a tribal life would believe their child was possessed if they exhibited those types of symptoms. That is my point when I suggest that education is part of the issue. Sure they'd know something wasn't right, but they'd have a whole different way of thinking about what was wrong with their child than you or I might.

eta: The same goes for any other culture which still lives a tribal way of life.

Clodfobble · 07-22-2009, 07:14 PM

Right. And they would hold exorcism ceremonies, or have whatever methods of treatment they thought might be successful--the point being that they would recognize the disease and know who had it and who didn't. And outsiders could tabulate how many "possessed" children there were in a group of people, and know what they were really counting. And in the end, they have done all this, and determined that the rate of autism in Africa is vastly lower than in America, both in areas where they vaccinate (through breathing treatments) and areas where they don't.

TheMercenary · 07-22-2009, 07:41 PM

The whole thing is much more complicated, but that is a good synopsis of how it works with the immune response.

Aliantha · 07-22-2009, 09:14 PM

My point was that not all detractors of the theory you're presenting necessarily assume people from Africa are stupid.

TheMercenary · 07-22-2009, 09:54 PM

This is a better synopsis of how the immune system works if anyone is really interested in understanding it better. It is quite complicated but efficient. The human body is amazing...

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Human_P...inst_Infection

06-08-2009, 08:19 AM	#272
TheMercenary “Hypocrisy: prejudice with a halo” Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Savannah, Georgia Posts: 21,393	Good point. __________________ Anyone but the this most fuked up President in History in 2012!

06-08-2009, 09:00 AM	#273
classicman barely disguised asshole, keeper of all that is holy. Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 23,401	Maybe that should be removed and perhaps handled via PM for whomever wants THAT specific info. The last thing we need is any more......issues. __________________ "like strapping a pillow on a bull in a china shop" Bullitt

07-01-2009, 07:55 PM	#275
jinx Come on, cat. Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: general vicinity of Philadelphia area Posts: 7,013	Huge surprise there... __________________ Crying won't help you, praying won't do you no good.

07-22-2009, 03:35 PM	#277
Clodfobble UNDER CONDITIONAL MITIGATION Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 20,012	No one ever claimed that the MMR is the sole and exclusive trigger of autism. It's not just about the MMR, it's about the aggressiveness of the entire schedule, and the way vaccinations are intended to work. Even vaccine opponents aren't sure why the MMR seems to have a higher risk than other vaccines. It is, in short, all about the adjuvants. The immune response is an extremely complex biological process, but in layman's terms, it's somewhat like this: the immune system works in stages. The first antibody response is supposed to be from IgA antibodies, which live almost exclusively in the lungs and digestive tract. This is how most diseases enter the body. The IgA antibodies are the ones that organize the overall response to the pathogen, and call in the IgE antibodies (which are what give you a typical allergic response of itchy eyes, sneezing, etc.) to do the dirty work of fighting the pathogen. They also are the ones that best "remember" the pathogen for the future, so that the body has immunity. When you inject the pathogen directly into the bloodstream, you completely bypass this IgA part of the immune system (and that is one reason why blood-borne diseases are usually so much more devastating than airborne.) This is an acknowledged drawback of injected vaccines, and it is precisely why they include an adjuvant with the injection, usually the heavy metal aluminum. An adjuvant is a substance which, for an unknown reason, hyperstimulates the IgE response. We can't get the IgAs to remember the pathogen, since we've excluded them from the process, so instead we just throw the IgEs into overdrive, significantly overproduce antibodies to fight the pathogen, and that way plenty are left over after the disease is defeated. But these antibodies die off over time, and this is why injections don't provide lifelong immunity while getting the actual disease does, and why we need booster shots after a few years. Is it really so hard to imagine that artificially stimulating the IgE antibodies would lead them to be more likely to mistake harmless substances (like, say, peanut proteins) as pathogens, thus creating an allergy to peanuts? It's not just about the MMR, and it's not just about autism. All autoimmune disorders are sharply on the rise, because we are screwing with our immune system and forcing it to work in ways it isn't designed to. The only reason the autism advocates are the only ones screaming is because having a kid with a severe peanut allergy just isn't that big a deal (I know, I have a stepson with one.) All the lesser diseases, while they might be lifestyle-altering, still leave you with your kid intact. But they are all a reflection of the problem--asthma, allergies, autism, ADHD, celiac disease, type 1 diabetes, rheumatoid arthritis... Incidentally, it's quite possible to administer vaccines in an airborne fashion, breathing them in through a mask. When they do this, no adjuvant is needed, and indeed, that's how they do vaccinations in Africa, because they have to re-use all their medical equipment down there, and re-using needles in an AIDS-ridden population is a big no-no. Guess who doesn't have an autism epidemic like we do? Of course, detractors will say that's because African doctors are too stupid to recognize autism when they see it, and African parents are too stupid to know whether their child knows how to talk or not. __________________ My book My other book My spirit animal Last edited by Clodfobble; 07-22-2009 at 04:05 PM.

07-22-2009, 05:04 PM	#278
Aliantha trying hard to be a better person Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 16,493	I don't think most people think African parents are too stupid. Possibly not educated enough to pick the symptoms, and most likely not wealthy enough to seek help anyway. __________________ Kind words are the music of the world. F. W. Faber

07-22-2009, 10:58 AM	#276
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	Bumped. I finally got around to looking at the studies BMJ 2001 Jul;323(7305):163-4 and N Engl J Med. 2003 Mar 6;348(10):951-4 and it appears Pie has sent me the original studies, and not the criticism of them. Pie, what I have is BMJ edition 322, not 323, and NEJM 347, not 348. I read the studies, or at least what I could understand of them without 300-level courses in statistics. In the NEJM study, roughly of 80% of about 500,000 children in Denmark were MMR-vaccinated, and roughly 80% of autism cases in the same group of children were of MMR-vaccinated children. (IOW, 20% of autism cases were in non-vaccinated children.) It will be interesting to see how this is criticized.

07-22-2009, 06:49 PM	#281
Aliantha trying hard to be a better person Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 16,493	A lot of African people who live a tribal life would believe their child was possessed if they exhibited those types of symptoms. That is my point when I suggest that education is part of the issue. Sure they'd know something wasn't right, but they'd have a whole different way of thinking about what was wrong with their child than you or I might. eta: The same goes for any other culture which still lives a tribal way of life. __________________ Kind words are the music of the world. F. W. Faber

07-22-2009, 07:14 PM	#282
Clodfobble UNDER CONDITIONAL MITIGATION Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 20,012	Right. And they would hold exorcism ceremonies, or have whatever methods of treatment they thought might be successful--the point being that they would recognize the disease and know who had it and who didn't. And outsiders could tabulate how many "possessed" children there were in a group of people, and know what they were really counting. And in the end, they have done all this, and determined that the rate of autism in Africa is vastly lower than in America, both in areas where they vaccinate (through breathing treatments) and areas where they don't. __________________ My book My other book My spirit animal

07-22-2009, 07:41 PM	#283
TheMercenary “Hypocrisy: prejudice with a halo” Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Savannah, Georgia Posts: 21,393	The whole thing is much more complicated, but that is a good synopsis of how it works with the immune response. __________________ Anyone but the this most fuked up President in History in 2012!

07-22-2009, 09:14 PM	#284
Aliantha trying hard to be a better person Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 16,493	My point was that not all detractors of the theory you're presenting necessarily assume people from Africa are stupid. __________________ Kind words are the music of the world. F. W. Faber

07-22-2009, 09:54 PM	#285
TheMercenary “Hypocrisy: prejudice with a halo” Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Savannah, Georgia Posts: 21,393	This is a better synopsis of how the immune system works if anyone is really interested in understanding it better. It is quite complicated but efficient. The human body is amazing... http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Human_P...inst_Infection __________________ Anyone but the this most fuked up President in History in 2012!

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