What is a hobby breeder? - Page 2

xoxoxoBruce · 03-22-2009, 02:50 AM

Her point, and mine, is puppy mills have nothing to do with hobby breeders or pet owners in general.... except pet owners provide a market for the pet stores that the puppy mills supply.
So these draconian regulations they are proposing have huge unintended consequences on the other 98% of the people that breed, or even own, dogs.

Pico and ME · 03-22-2009, 02:53 AM

If these 'Draconian ' measures actually end up protecting the animals, then Im all for it. Hobby breeders be damned.

Undertoad · 03-22-2009, 02:54 AM

I know a little about the dog breeding bi'ness, and a good bit about economics.

What I notice is that quality hobby breeders provide about 10% of the dogs out there, which means they are not setting the market price. I also notice that my local pet store that sells dogs is putting up Puggles at the same price as semi-quality Boston Terriers (of which I know a little, enough to judge the quality of). Hobby breeders aren't setting the price of Puggles, so there must be something else afoot.

Pico and ME · 03-22-2009, 02:57 AM

Then the business of hobby breeders matters not so much, but the puppy mills do, and so taxing them to make them not as profitable is good.

xoxoxoBruce · 03-22-2009, 02:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pico and ME

Once a demand for a pricey breed is created, then comes the puppy mills.

Thus, there is a responsibility to the breed.

So the solution is to outlaw every breed except one? Everybody must own the official government mandated breed?

They're is no reason why puppy mills can't be regulated, inspected, or in my opinion outlawed entirely, if they wanted to. But it's easier and cheaper for the lazy fucking politicians to just dump on everyone.

xoxoxoBruce · 03-22-2009, 03:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pico and ME

If these 'Draconian ' measures actually end up protecting the animals, then Im all for it. Hobby breeders be damned.

You'd make a great politician.

Pico and ME · 03-22-2009, 03:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

So the solution is to outlaw every breed except one? Everybody must own the official government mandated breed?

They're is no reason why puppy mills can't be regulated, inspected, or in my opinion outlawed entirely, if they wanted to. But it's easier and cheaper for the lazy fucking politicians to just dump on everyone.

Bruce, thats where I think you are overreacting. Ultimately, the gobermint wont actually be able to exert the kind of control you are forecasting, but starting the business of control is really important.

xoxoxoBruce · 03-22-2009, 03:13 AM

Oh sure, we can trust the government... the government is our friend.
You think I'm over reacting because you haven't got a clue how the bureaucracy works.

One thought, puppy mills are bad. OK, we all agree on that, even Nirvana.
But what are we going to do about it?
You say trust the government.
I know better.

Pico and ME · 03-22-2009, 03:18 AM

No, Im not really trusting the government, Im trusting the process.

xoxoxoBruce · 03-22-2009, 03:20 AM

What process is that, other than the government making laws?

Pico and ME · 03-22-2009, 03:23 AM

The process of people making and adjusting the laws.

xoxoxoBruce · 03-22-2009, 03:59 AM

Oh, the legislators. Of all the state and federal legislators that make these laws, I wonder how many know anything about hobby breeders... or puppy mills except "everyone" knows they are bad? Not many, I'll bet.

So how can they write, or even make an informed decision to vote on a law about it? They have a staff member or more often a professional law writer do it.

This professional writer knows how laws (bills) must be structured so all they have to do is gather the information of what needs to be in the law.
Where do they get this information? Tons and tons of research... or a friendly lobbyist that presents the package all ready to use... no muss, no fuss, quick money plus perks.

But then the law (bill) goes back to the legislator and he checks it out to see that it's what he wanted, right? No, he reads the synopsis the pro law writer provides. No sense in reading the whole thing, it's long, boring and the legislator never understood what should be in it in the first place.

Lots of laws get killed before they come to a vote because it didn't say what the legislator though it was supposed to. If it's a subject that's really contentious, the opposition will pick it apart. But puppy mills?, "everyone" knows they're bad, so no contention there.
That's how unintended consequences get made law, that may or may not be repealed... eventually.

All this was explained to me by a professional law(bill) writer I used to know, and I've seen it in action too damn many times.

Sundae · 03-22-2009, 06:45 AM

Why do I think I walked in half way through a conversation?

My 2 cents anyway.
I was anti pure-bred animals for a long time.
All I could see were dogs that had been bred into fearsome shapes, being bought for a fortune, while other dogs were killed for want of space - unwanted, unloved but dogs nonetheless.

Then I started looking into pedigree cats, because none of the cat homes in Leicester would let me adopt a moggie because I lived on a busy road and wanted to keep it inside. Then I met Diz & Dylan. Okay, they're not as mutated as some pedigree dogs. But their character is a million miles away from any other cat I know. I adore Diz (and still grieve daily over Dylan).

I know this has nothing to do with your conversation, which I assume came about because of some new law in the States. But I got my boys from a responsible breeder, and Diz is the light of my life. I know she made no profit out of the transaction - she was selling them because she'd kept too many cats out of love, and two neutered boys were easier to part with. Would I have paid more for them, to give the Govt a cut? No. I couldn't afford it then or now. Would I gve every penny I have now (okay, that's not much!) to save my boy? Yes.

Keep the Govt out of everything it doesn't need to be in. And that's coming from a socialist living in a fascist regime.

morethanpretty · 03-22-2009, 12:06 PM

There are not enough responsible hobby breeders, there are way too many puppy mills, or kitten mills. Although I think we probably have less of a problem with purebred kittens/cats. If you go to a flea-market (or trades day), go to the animal section, I bet you 99% of those purebred puppies bein sold, are from puppy mills. This is wrong. Unfortunately people are greedy and consumers are stupid, so they will not regulate themselves in mass. If you don't want the government to step in to protect our animals, then you have to change the society's mindset. That happens alot more slowly than it takes to change laws (which is often too slow of a process as it is). So yes, I am in perfect agreement that sometimes it takes harsh measures to patrol the misbehaving, that also constrain the people who would otherwise behave.
On further note, I do not necessarily agree with the law in PA about only a vet being allowed to kill an animal. At the same time I see its usefullness, if the same situation happens again the law has a recourse to further prosecute the offenders.

DanaC · 03-22-2009, 12:53 PM

Consumers aren't necessarily stupid, they may just be uniformed. My family bought from a kennels that almost certainly used puppy farm breeders for stock. We weren't stupid we just didn't know better at the time.

03-22-2009, 02:50 AM	#16
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	Her point, and mine, is puppy mills have nothing to do with hobby breeders or pet owners in general.... except pet owners provide a market for the pet stores that the puppy mills supply. So these draconian regulations they are proposing have huge unintended consequences on the other 98% of the people that breed, or even own, dogs. __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

03-22-2009, 03:13 AM	#23
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	Oh sure, we can trust the government... the government is our friend. You think I'm over reacting because you haven't got a clue how the bureaucracy works. One thought, puppy mills are bad. OK, we all agree on that, even Nirvana. But what are we going to do about it? You say trust the government. I know better. __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

03-22-2009, 03:20 AM	#25
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	What process is that, other than the government making laws? __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

03-22-2009, 03:59 AM	#27
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	Oh, the legislators. Of all the state and federal legislators that make these laws, I wonder how many know anything about hobby breeders... or puppy mills except "everyone" knows they are bad? Not many, I'll bet. So how can they write, or even make an informed decision to vote on a law about it? They have a staff member or more often a professional law writer do it. This professional writer knows how laws (bills) must be structured so all they have to do is gather the information of what needs to be in the law. Where do they get this information? Tons and tons of research... or a friendly lobbyist that presents the package all ready to use... no muss, no fuss, quick money plus perks. But then the law (bill) goes back to the legislator and he checks it out to see that it's what he wanted, right? No, he reads the synopsis the pro law writer provides. No sense in reading the whole thing, it's long, boring and the legislator never understood what should be in it in the first place. Lots of laws get killed before they come to a vote because it didn't say what the legislator though it was supposed to. If it's a subject that's really contentious, the opposition will pick it apart. But puppy mills?, "everyone" knows they're bad, so no contention there. That's how unintended consequences get made law, that may or may not be repealed... eventually. All this was explained to me by a professional law(bill) writer I used to know, and I've seen it in action too damn many times. __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

03-22-2009, 06:45 AM	#28
Sundae polaroid of perfection Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 24,185	Why do I think I walked in half way through a conversation? My 2 cents anyway. I was anti pure-bred animals for a long time. All I could see were dogs that had been bred into fearsome shapes, being bought for a fortune, while other dogs were killed for want of space - unwanted, unloved but dogs nonetheless. Then I started looking into pedigree cats, because none of the cat homes in Leicester would let me adopt a moggie because I lived on a busy road and wanted to keep it inside. Then I met Diz & Dylan. Okay, they're not as mutated as some pedigree dogs. But their character is a million miles away from any other cat I know. I adore Diz (and still grieve daily over Dylan). I know this has nothing to do with your conversation, which I assume came about because of some new law in the States. But I got my boys from a responsible breeder, and Diz is the light of my life. I know she made no profit out of the transaction - she was selling them because she'd kept too many cats out of love, and two neutered boys were easier to part with. Would I have paid more for them, to give the Govt a cut? No. I couldn't afford it then or now. Would I gve every penny I have now (okay, that's not much!) to save my boy? Yes. Keep the Govt out of everything it doesn't need to be in. And that's coming from a socialist living in a fascist regime. __________________ Life's hard you know, so strike a pose on a Cadillac

03-22-2009, 02:53 AM	#17
Pico and ME Are you knock-kneed? Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Middle Hoosierland Posts: 3,549	If these 'Draconian ' measures actually end up protecting the animals, then Im all for it. Hobby breeders be damned.

03-22-2009, 02:54 AM	#18
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	I know a little about the dog breeding bi'ness, and a good bit about economics. What I notice is that quality hobby breeders provide about 10% of the dogs out there, which means they are not setting the market price. I also notice that my local pet store that sells dogs is putting up Puggles at the same price as semi-quality Boston Terriers (of which I know a little, enough to judge the quality of). Hobby breeders aren't setting the price of Puggles, so there must be something else afoot.

03-22-2009, 02:57 AM	#19
Pico and ME Are you knock-kneed? Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Middle Hoosierland Posts: 3,549	Then the business of hobby breeders matters not so much, but the puppy mills do, and so taxing them to make them not as profitable is good.

03-22-2009, 03:18 AM	#24
Pico and ME Are you knock-kneed? Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Middle Hoosierland Posts: 3,549	No, Im not really trusting the government, Im trusting the process.

03-22-2009, 03:23 AM	#26
Pico and ME Are you knock-kneed? Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Middle Hoosierland Posts: 3,549	The process of people making and adjusting the laws.

03-22-2009, 12:06 PM	#29
morethanpretty Thats "Miss Zipper Neck" to you. Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: little town (but not the littlest) in texas Posts: 2,957	There are not enough responsible hobby breeders, there are way too many puppy mills, or kitten mills. Although I think we probably have less of a problem with purebred kittens/cats. If you go to a flea-market (or trades day), go to the animal section, I bet you 99% of those purebred puppies bein sold, are from puppy mills. This is wrong. Unfortunately people are greedy and consumers are stupid, so they will not regulate themselves in mass. If you don't want the government to step in to protect our animals, then you have to change the society's mindset. That happens alot more slowly than it takes to change laws (which is often too slow of a process as it is). So yes, I am in perfect agreement that sometimes it takes harsh measures to patrol the misbehaving, that also constrain the people who would otherwise behave. On further note, I do not necessarily agree with the law in PA about only a vet being allowed to kill an animal. At the same time I see its usefullness, if the same situation happens again the law has a recourse to further prosecute the offenders. __________________ Addicts may suck dick for coke, but love came up with the idea to put a dick in there to begin with. -Jack O'Brien

03-22-2009, 12:53 PM	#30
DanaC We have to go back, Kate! Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Yorkshire Posts: 25,964	Consumers aren't necessarily stupid, they may just be uniformed. My family bought from a kennels that almost certainly used puppy farm breeders for stock. We weren't stupid we just didn't know better at the time.

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