Evolution’s Backers in Kansas Start Counterattack - Page 2

Kitsune · 08-01-2006, 03:42 PM

This is cool, guys, really. I'm simply advocating that the government also force science and evolution to be taught in church.

Ibby · 08-01-2006, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pangloss62

This reminds me of this awful talk show I heard on a road trip last week where the "archeologist" was being interviewed by Dobson or Robertson or whoever the fuck about the remains of Noahs Ark in Turkey. Two of every animal? Uh...what about fish, marine mammals, insects, on and on. The whole idea is so preposterous yet here they trot out the science of archeology to prove some myth. I got sooooooo mad I almost dropped my Slushie!

Actually, this I disagree with, because you have to keep in mind... The Bible is not to be taken literally.

It has been found that that area (which to them was the whole world) flooded massively around that era... and remains of a damn big ship was found down there... but when the bible says every animal, it probably means, you know, some deer, some cats, some dogs, a goat or two... etc.

Just like the story about the star over Jesus's birthplace... Some astrologers think they have found evidence of a star that went nova and would have made a bright light appear in the sky here a couple thousand years ago... And a really rad dude named Jesus DID live back then... The bright light probably wasnt right over his head when seen from wherever the hell the 'wise men' were from, but it makes for a good story.

Not every single word of the Bible is a lie... But that doesn't mean the truth isn't streched or exaggerated or objective... and some are just simple mistakes. The world was 'created by god' because they had no way of figuring out differently, the same way that thunderbolts were hurled by zeus because there was no other explaination the ancient greeks could have figured out. The Bible is roughly equal parts moral homilies, 'scientific' theories, and not-too-literal history.

08-01-2006, 03:54 PM

The more I have thought about it, the two scientists that I know that believe in intelligent design are not in that field, it should not be taught in schools.
It is not a theory that can be quantified in any way. Until it can be, it should not be taught.

Flint · 08-01-2006, 03:57 PM

::: puts away my rkzenrage-beating-stick :::

08-01-2006, 03:58 PM

Don't be hasty baby.

Flint · 08-01-2006, 03:59 PM

Have you been very, very bad?

08-01-2006, 04:00 PM

Oh yes... so very bad!

BigV · 08-01-2006, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rkzenrage

What the hell is the problem with presenting both views, stating that most scientists believe that evolution is the most accurate?
If one is secure in their religion they would have no issue with it, right?

Ok.

Long answer: Why not teach it in math class? If the student is confident in their arithmetic skills, what's the problem? Or PE? Good athelete, no sweat. Or in music? Only the tin ears have anything to fear. These suggestions are no less ridiculous than suggesting we teach it in science class. It is *exactly* as appropriate in all those classes, including science.

There may be scientists who believe in Intelligent Design. Are you one? Can you cite one? ID is not science and it has no place in a science class, any more than the idea that the earth is flat. Show me. Use science and persuade me, teach me why it belongs in the same breath as science. I've an open mind. I'm skeptical, but willing to give your ideas a chance. That's part of the scientific method: peer review. Let us all review your ideas. Let us all subject them to the same tests and the same standards that other hypotheses are subjected to. If you want to play at science, you must follow the rules.

Otherwise, you're right. It's a waste of time.

Short answer: Because it's not science.

Happy Monkey · 08-01-2006, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 9th Engineer

The quote about evolution departing from tentitive science is interesting as well. I saw quite a change in attitude in my senior bio class once we entered the evolution chapter.

That's because the rest of it hasn't been under constant rhetorical assault for decades. The teacher can't let the class devolve into a public reading of answersingenesis.com when the evolution chapter is reached. It would probably be nicer if the teacher had a website that collected all the standard challenges and their refutations, but I'll guess he was just battening down the hatches and trying to get through the material.

Quote:

...saying that the only reason they would have to ask such a question is that they obviously have no idea how science actually works...

Sometimes that's true. Like "If man evolved from monkeys, how come there are still monkeys?" If a student is trying to filibuster the class by asking all the standard creationist questions, at some point you have to push on.

JayMcGee · 08-01-2006, 06:42 PM

Outside, Looking in......

You guys have me in hysterics..... the rest of the world looks on, gob-smacked, as the nation that put a man on the moon actually gives credence to the far-right bible-thumpers idiotic ramblings.

richlevy · 08-01-2006, 06:48 PM

Well, as you can see in my post in the engagement thread, Kentucky will soon have it's own Creationism museum to entertain and enlighten the children so that they can complete their science education and find careers in the fast growing fields of dowsing and phrenology.

Kitsune · 08-01-2006, 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JayMcGee

You guys have me in hysterics..... the rest of the world looks on, gob-smacked, as the nation that put a man on the moon actually gives credence to the far-right bible-thumpers idiotic ramblings.

Try living here. It isn't as remotely humorous as outsiders might find it.

Pie · 08-01-2006, 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JayMcGee

...as the nation that put a man on the moon...

That was staged on a Hollywood backlot. Didncha know?

9th Engineer · 08-01-2006, 09:21 PM

We wern't trying to get in the way of anything. Trying to teach evolution in two weeks means that all the information is incredibly disjointed, so we often had no idea how any of it fit together. I had lots of questions about the genetics aspect of evolution, I wanted to know how things like rapid intron mutation fit in and stuff like that.
Evolution is always going to raise lots of questions from an inquiring class because unless you have a very good teacher who puts things in the right order and gives LOTS of connecting detail that isn't in your standard textbook it doesn't make any sense. If you tell an intelligent student that evolution occurs over extremely long stretches of time, then say that it is caused by discrete events such as genetic isolation from others of the same species combined with environmental changes it's only natural that the student will want to know exactly how an event which is a few tens of years in duration can provide genetic pressure for the millions of years we were told was needed that is great enough for specification but not so great that it kills off the animals(*deep breath*).

Now, the guy wasn't the brightest bulb in the lamp (I haven't run into alot of highschool science teachers that could explain past the textbook) and he probably only used the textbook for reference, but if you want me to learn something then at least let me point out where I need some more info.

08-01-2006, 11:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigV

Ok.

Long answer: Why not teach it in math class? If the student is confident in their arithmetic skills, what's the problem? Or PE? Good athelete, no sweat. Or in music? Only the tin ears have anything to fear. These suggestions are no less ridiculous than suggesting we teach it in science class. It is *exactly* as appropriate in all those classes, including science.

There may be scientists who believe in Intelligent Design. Are you one? Can you cite one? ID is not science and it has no place in a science class, any more than the idea that the earth is flat. Show me. Use science and persuade me, teach me why it belongs in the same breath as science. I've an open mind. I'm skeptical, but willing to give your ideas a chance. That's part of the scientific method: peer review. Let us all review your ideas. Let us all subject them to the same tests and the same standards that other hypotheses are subjected to. If you want to play at science, you must follow the rules.

Otherwise, you're right. It's a waste of time.

Short answer: Because it's not science.

Tail-posting is rude.

My brain hurts.... High-tech museum brings creationism to life

08-01-2006, 03:57 PM	#19
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	::: puts away my rkzenrage-beating-stick ::: __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio**

08-01-2006, 03:59 PM	#21
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	Have you been very, very bad? __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio**

08-01-2006, 06:42 PM	#25
JayMcGee Cardigan-wearing man Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Much Binding In The Marsh Posts: 1,082	Outside, Looking in...... You guys have me in hysterics..... the rest of the world looks on, gob-smacked, as the nation that put a man on the moon actually gives credence to the far-right bible-thumpers idiotic ramblings. __________________ I like wearing cardigans...... my current favourite is an orange cable-knit with real leatherette buttons.

08-01-2006, 06:48 PM	#26
richlevy King Of Wishful Thinking Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Philadelphia Suburbs Posts: 6,669	Well, as you can see in my post in the engagement thread, Kentucky will soon have it's own Creationism museum to entertain and enlighten the children so that they can complete their science education and find careers in the fast growing fields of dowsing and phrenology. __________________ Exercise your rights and remember your obligations - VOTE! I have always believed that hope is that stubborn thing inside us that insists, despite all the evidence to the contrary, that something better awaits us so long as we have the courage to keep reaching, to keep working, to keep fighting. -- Barack Hussein Obama

08-01-2006, 09:21 PM	#29
9th Engineer Bioengineer and aspiring lawer Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 872	We wern't trying to get in the way of anything. Trying to teach evolution in two weeks means that all the information is incredibly disjointed, so we often had no idea how any of it fit together. I had lots of questions about the genetics aspect of evolution, I wanted to know how things like rapid intron mutation fit in and stuff like that. Evolution is always going to raise lots of questions from an inquiring class because unless you have a very good teacher who puts things in the right order and gives LOTS of connecting detail that isn't in your standard textbook it doesn't make any sense. If you tell an intelligent student that evolution occurs over extremely long stretches of time, then say that it is caused by discrete events such as genetic isolation from others of the same species combined with environmental changes it's only natural that the student will want to know exactly how an event which is a few tens of years in duration can provide genetic pressure for the millions of years we were told was needed that is great enough for specification but not so great that it kills off the animals(deep breath). Now, the guy wasn't the brightest bulb in the lamp (I haven't run into alot of highschool science teachers that could explain past the textbook) and he probably only used the textbook for reference, but if you want me to learn something then at least let me point out where I need some more info. __________________ The most valuable renewable resource is stupidity.

08-01-2006, 03:42 PM	#16
Kitsune still eats dirt Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Tampa, FL Posts: 3,031	This is cool, guys, really. I'm simply advocating that the government also force science and evolution to be taught in church.

08-01-2006, 03:54 PM	#18
rkzenrage Guest Posts: n/a	The more I have thought about it, the two scientists that I know that believe in intelligent design are not in that field, it should not be taught in schools. It is not a theory that can be quantified in any way. Until it can be, it should not be taught.

08-01-2006, 03:58 PM	#20
rkzenrage Guest Posts: n/a	Don't be hasty baby.

08-01-2006, 04:00 PM	#22
rkzenrage Guest Posts: n/a	Oh yes... so very bad!

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