"Why do Palestinians hate us?"

[piercehawkeye45]

They can not do anything about it, that is the problem. They do not have the room to be self supportive because of the walls Israel is building. If they do get land (the worse land in the area BTW), Israeli troops will sometimes destroy them.

You do have a point with the "blame the other" situation but to think that a society is always at fault no matter how much outside pressure is applied is not very intelligent either. There is a time for responsibility within a culture as a whole and a time when you can legitimately as a culture blame an outside force for parts of the problem and from what I have seen, Palestine has a very good argument.

I mean, you can not blame a child for not turning in an assignment when the bully (that is much stronger than him) rips up his homework every day before class and the teacher or any authority refuses to do anything about it.

Much different than using "The niggers|jews|spics|rich people|poor people|drug dealers|cops".

I agree that always blaming problems on outside sources is very dangerous but going to the extreme as to blame the person for every problem they have is just as bad. Shit does happen.



For being self-supportive, they have the worst land in the area because Israel has claimed the best, lost about 75% of their former land, and now the territories have the 7th highest population density in the world. They have very bad health care and education and it isn't improving along with an extreme poverty rate of over 50%. It is extremely hard, if not impossible to start up a stable economy under those conditions, even without outside pressure from Israel.

When you add Israel's influence then the chances plummet even more. Israel is a country that has broken numerous international laws and violated(1) many more human right violations(2). In 2003, Durfur supporters were getting extremely angry at human right groups focusing all the attention on Israel(3).

This also brings up the sociological issue of hopelessness within a culture. This will be highly controversial but to exclude this is leaving out a very important factor that Israel or the US never had to face in large amounts and it is something we can not solve either in small amounts. One example would be trying to rid our government of corruption, if we can get rid of that then maybe you can make an argument about Palestine's culture being at fault.

Israel was a desert. But the people focused on being productive instead of simply focusing on hate. And now the desert blooms. The same could happen in Palestinian territories.

If you ignore the premises, maybe. If we both start businesses and I have one million dollars and a masters in business and you have one thousand dollars and no experience and a much smaller lot, you can not expect you to even close to the success I can have. Israel has had an enormous amount of financial and military support from the US and other countries, something you can not ignore when comparing them to Palestine.



I do disagree with many things Hamas do such as that Mickey Mouse parody but to think that is the sole influence of the "blaming of others" problem is a very weak argument. I can guarantee most of the hatred comes from actual experiences with Israeli troops and this propaganda only will enforce it. For example, using cluster bombs and civilian human body shields are much more powerful than a stupid TV shows.

From all of history, name two.

Maybe I can’t name two for the exact conditions but you can name many rulers that have used personal gain as a reason to hold their people down, most of these can be seen in third world countries.



(1) http://www.geocities.com/savepalesti...ides/sgil3.htm
(2) http://www.pchrgaza.ps/files/W_repor...21-06-2007.htm
(3) http://www.ngo-monitor.org/editions/...OsAndSudan.htm

[Undertoad]

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

They can not do anything about it, that is the problem.

They refuse to do anything about it.

They do not have the room to be self supportive because of the walls Israel is building.

What a load of crap. "We are unsuccessful because we can't easily enter our worst enemy's territory." Can't you look at this one at face value and see how ridiculous it is?

If they do get land (the worse land in the area BTW), Israeli troops will sometimes destroy them.

Bulldoze, but not indiscriminately. If they are the family of a suicide bomber, or the entrance to an arms-smuggling tunnel, the dozers move in.

Boo fuckin' hoo.

For being self-supportive, they have the worst land in the area because Israel has claimed the best,

That's bullshit, but you can imagine how such a notion got started. After all, it's pretty much all bad land... but somehow the Joos made their parts green. Everywhere they worked the land, they turned it green.

When you said "claimed", by the way, I'm sure you meant "taken over as a defensive measure during a defensive war." And really, now that Israel does not occupy southern Lebanon, and has given back Gaza, and kicked Israeli settlers out of their houses and off what they considered to be their land, some of the old talking points are starting to look a little kooky.

...lost about 75% of their former land, and now the territories have the 7th highest population density in the world. They have very bad health care and education and it isn't improving along with an extreme poverty rate of over 50%. It is extremely hard, if not impossible to start up a stable economy under those conditions, even without outside pressure from Israel.

Do you want to talk about a people that faced a rough start? How about the Jews? Their starting point was the Holocaust. And after that, most incoming Israelis were unceremoniously kicked out of their previous residence in neighboring Arab countries.

Did they blame the other? They had every right to, didn't they? Practically no people in modern history has had a bigger right to blame the other. And for a while, many of them were steaming mad and pursued outrageous, even terroristic acts and policies.

But, for the most part, they spent more time building a productive culture, improving themselves and their society, until voila -- they are now so powerful that one can't even remember when they were not the powerful ones. So powerful, that we now hear arguments about how the Jews got a better start, a big advantage.

Six million dead, and the rest in ghettos or kicked out of their countries...

Israel has had an enormous amount of financial and military support from the US and other countries, something you can not ignore when comparing them to Palestine.

US support for Israel did not really start in meaningful quantity until 1973 and didn't really grow large until 1979. Seriously. You could look it up.

But even then, as with the Arafat example, support is one thing... having a culture that will do something productive with it, is another. They were given a University! They use it to teach bomb-making methods. They were given television stations! They use them to indoctrinate the kids in hate. They were given loads and loads of money! They used it to buy munitions. They were given the vote! They voted for Hamas.

Helpless? Not hardly; when they ask for food aid instead of monetary aid, get back to me.

[Gaelic Ninja]

Originally Posted by Spexxvet

Why don't the local Arab nations assimilate the Palestinians? They all say the Palestinians' plight is so horrible, why not help them, instead of spewing the "Isreal must go" retoric, and keeping them in refugee camps?

Very good source of new recruits for various orginizations? And a ready supply of hate to help those new recruits make their choices? I dunno. But that's what I'd be doing, were I in their shoes.

[DanaC]

The Palestinians don't want to be 'assimilated' into someone else's country. They want to be palestinians, in their own country. They no more want to be honorary Lebonese than I want to be an honorary French woman.

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

They refuse to do anything about it.

What can they do about it?

What a load of crap. "We are unsuccessful because we can't easily enter our worst enemy's territory." Can't you look at this one at face value and see how ridiculous it is?

I am looking at it at face value. You can not build a successful agricultural society without land. If you do not have the land, you can not succeed, it is very simple.

Bulldoze, but not indiscriminately. If they are the family of a suicide bomber, or the entrance to an arms-smuggling tunnel, the dozers move in.

Give proof of that, and even that is not an excuse to violate the family's property rights. Do we bulldoze the home the families that have a murderer as a son? Of course not, neither should Israel.

Boo fuckin' hoo.

You are a strong supporter of right to property since you are libertarian right? So why the hell are you defending a group that illegally takes away people's property and sends them to refugee camps? What about the 800,000 people that were kicked out of Israel in 1948, do they not deserve their land or what?

If the United States took your house away and sent you to a incredibly horrible refugee camp you would be screaming bloody murder. Stop with that bullshit.

That's bullshit, but you can imagine how such a notion got started. After all, it's pretty much all bad land... but somehow the Joos made their parts green. Everywhere they worked the land, they turned it green.

People have been living on that land for over 10,000 years, parts of the land is very good for agriculture and some of it isn't, hardly a desert.

When you said "claimed", by the way, I'm sure you meant "taken over as a defensive measure during a defensive war."

Stop with that defensive shit. They knew if they created Israel in that spot the neighboring countries would attack and displacing 800,000 people is not a defensive measure. If I go into a house where I know I will be attacked when I walk in and then I do get attacked and fight back it is not defensive since I am provoking them to attack. Israel should not have been placed in that spot since everyone knew it would cause major problems. They had a choice and refused to make the decisions so in reality Israel created every one of its problems since it could have been avoided.

And really, now that Israel does not occupy southern Lebanon, and has given back Gaza, and kicked Israeli settlers out of their houses and off what they considered to be their land, some of the old talking points are starting to look a little kooky.

Wait, so if I I go into wolf's house and steal something, then go into xoxoxoBruce's house and steal something, then I go into your house and steal something but give it back to you after much protest I should be looked as merciful? I will start a life of crime then.

[quoteDo you want to talk about a people that faced a rough start? How about the Jews? Their starting point was the Holocaust. And after that, most incoming Israelis were unceremoniously kicked out of their previous residence in neighboring Arab countries.[/quote]
The Jews did have a rough start but it doesn't justify their actions. Israel should not have been placed where it was, clear and simple, they walked into all their problems on that regard.

Did they blame the other? They had every right to, didn't they? Practically no people in modern history has had a bigger right to blame the other. And for a while, many of them were steaming mad and pursued outrageous, even terroristic acts and policies.

I will agree with this but it still doesn't excuse their current actions.

But, for the most part, they spent more time building a productive culture, improving themselves and their society, until voila -- they are now so powerful that one can't even remember when they were not the powerful ones. So powerful, that we now hear arguments about how the Jews got a better start, a big advantage.

They did work hard but they were on a much better situation to build a country than Palestine is now.

Six million dead, and the rest in ghettos or kicked out of their countries...

And that excuses them to kill Palestinians and kick them out of their homes in a place that they knew would cause trouble?

US support for Israel did not really start in meaningful quantity until 1973 and didn't really grow large until 1979. Seriously. You could look it up.

I'll agree with that for military help but we have been supporting Israel economically since 1949 or 1951.
http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_199...us_support.php

They were given a University! They use it to teach bomb-making methods. They were given television stations! They use them to indoctrinate the kids in hate. They were given loads and loads of money! They used it to buy munitions. They were given the vote! They voted for Hamas.

Hamas does all that stuff and you have a hell of a lot of arrogance to criticize who they vote for when you do not experience what they do. The fact is that Hamas gives an extremely high amount of non-military social services to Palestine and is the only one that guarantees a destruction of Israel (that does not mean destruction as total destruction but just the destruction of the state structure). All the polls I have seen says that most Palestinians do want peace so this does not make sense. Maybe, because most Palestinians can not see peace under Israel, but only when the state is destroyed.

Helpless? Not hardly; when they ask for food aid instead of monetary aid, get back to me.

Hamas is asking for food, and there are many other reasons for their election so this does not necessarily represent the people.

If we choose not to understand how they feel about us we can't complain about Iran, or anyone else, supplying arms to insurgents in Iraq.

[xoxoxoBruce]

The Jews didn't suddenly appear in 1948, they had been moving into the area since the late 1800s, especially after 1931. As they improved the land and built the economy, more of the Palestinians were drawn to the area from all over the region... they also prospered.

At the time, as it had been for thousands of years, others ruled the area but didn't live there, until the UN gave it over to the Jews. The Palestinians didn't care because they had never been the rulers. The Arabs, who had been the rulers before the British, declared war on the Jews figuring they couldn't reclaim the area from the Brits but the Jews would be a push over.

Meanwhile most of the Palestinians, who had for centuries just split until the rulers finished fighting then moved back, followed the traditional pattern. But this was a new era and when the fighting was done, the Jews weren't going home victorious... they were home. The Palestinians that stayed and the ones that returned, prospered along with the Jews.

After the Arabs got their ass kicked, they started working on the Palestinians to become a constant threat to the Jews. By keeping them poor and pissed the could recruit them to do what outside world would frown on the Arabs doing.

Finally, in the late 80s, the Arabs organized Hamas to have better control over all the little terrorists they had groomed. The constant bullshit from Hamas became such a pain in the ass for the Jews they kicked the Palestinians out of Israel, where they were doing well as citizens... second class citizens, but a hell of a lot better off than the Palestinians that were coached by the Arabs.

The Arabs have been using the Palestinians as a tool against the Jews for sixty years, and through the Muslim Brotherhood formed Hamas, for the last twenty.

Israelis moving there is one thing, being told "your house is theirs now, get tha' fuck out" is another. I'd kill em' too.

[Rexmons]

The Palestinians are Arabs and never had a problem sharing the land with the Jewish people until the U.N. stepped in and took it from the Arab Palestinians. This article has a very good breakdown of the events that unfolded. Also, since the U.S. is one of the 5 permanent members of the U.N. security councel they've been pretty busy is Israeli agenda.

[Rexmons]

U.S. Vetos since 1973 regarding Israel:

July 1973, S/10974

Vote: 13 in favor, 1 veto (US)

The resolution strongly deplored Israel's occupation of the Arab territories since 1967, and expressed serious concern with the Israeli authorities' lack of cooperation with the UN Special Representative of the Secretary General.

January 1976, S/11940

Vote: 9 in favor, 1 veto (US)
.
The resolution called for Israeli withdrawal from the occupied Arab territories since 1967, and deplored Israel's refusal to implement relevant UN resolutions. It furthermore reaffirmed the right of the Palestinian people to self determination, and the right of return for Palestinian refugees.

March 1976, S/12022

Vote: 14 in favor, 1 veto (US).

In the draft, the Security Council expressed deep concern over Israeli measures to change the character of the occupied territories, in particular Jerusalem, the establishment of Israeli settlements, human rights violations, and called for an end of such measures.

June 1976, S/12119

Vote: 10 in favor, 1 veto (US)

The resolution affirmed the right of the Palestinian people to self determination, the right of return, and the right to national independence.

April 1980, S/13911

Vote: 10 in favor, 1 veto (US)

The resolution affirmed the Palestinian right to establish an independent state, the right of return or compensation for loss of property for refugees not wishing to return, and Israeli withdrawal from the occupied Arab territories since 1967.

April 1982, S/14943

Vote: 13 in favor, 1 veto (US)
.
In the draft, the Security Council denounced Israeli interference with local governance in the West Bank, and its violations of the rights and liberties of the population in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. The resolution furthermore called on Israel to end all activities in breach of the Fourth Geneva Convention.

April 1982, S/14985

Vote: 14 in favor, 1 veto (US).

The draft strongly condemned the shooting of worshippers at Haram Al-Sharif on 11 April, 1982, and called on Israel to observe and apply the provisions of the Forth Geneva Convention, and other international laws.

June 1982, S/15185

Vote: 14 in favor, 1 veto (US).

The resolution draft condemned the Israeli non-compliance with resolutions 508 and 509, urged the parties to comply with the Hague Convention of 1907, and restated the Security Council's demands of Israeli withdrawal from Lebanon.

June 1982, S/15255/Rev. 2

Vote: 14 in favor, 1 veto (US)
.
The resolution demanded the immediate withdrawal of Israeli and Palestinian forces from areas in and around Beirut, and that the parties would comply with resolution 508. It furthermore requested that the Secretary General would station UN military observers to supervise the ceasefire and disengagement in and around Beirut, and that the Secretary General would make proposals for the installation of a UN force to take up positions beside the Lebanese interposition force.

August 1982, S/15347/Rev. 1

Vote: 11 in favor, 1 veto (US)

The resolution strongly condemned Israel for not implementing resolutions 516 and 517, called for their immediate implementation, and decided that all UN member-states would refrain from providing Israel with weapons or other military aid until Israeli withdrawal from Lebanese territory.

August 1983, S/15895

Vote: 13 in favor, 1 veto (US)

The resolution called upon Israel to discontinue the establishment of new settlements in the Arab territories occupied since 1967, to dismantle existing settlements, and to adhere to the Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War. The resolution furthermore rejected Israeli deportations and transfers of Palestinian civilians, and condemned attacks against the Arab civilian population. The Security Council also called upon other states to refrain from giving Israel any assistance related to the settlements, and stated its intention to examine ways of securing the implementation of the resolution, in the event of Israeli non-compliance

September 1985, S/17459

Vote: 10 in favor, 1 veto (US), 4 abstentions.

The resolution draft deplored the repressive measures applied by the Israeli authorities against the Palestinian population in the occupied territories, and called upon Israel to immediately cease the use of repressive measures, including the use of curfews, deportations, and detentions.

January 1986, S/17769

Vote: 13 in favor, 1 veto (US), 1 abstention.

The resolution strongly deplored Israeli refusal to abide earlier Security Council resolutions, and called upon Israel to comply with these resolutions, as well as the norms of international law governing military occupation such as the Fourth Geneva Convention. The Security Council also expressed deep concern with violations of the sanctity of the Haram Al-Sharif, and with Israeli measures aimed at altering the character of the occupied territories, including Jerusalem.

January 1988, S/19466

Vote: 14 in favor, 1 veto (US).

The resolution called upon Israel to accept the de jure applicability of the Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Times of War to the territories occupied since 1967, and to conform to the Convention. The resolution moreover called upon Israel to refrain from practices violating the human rights of the Palestinian people.

April 1988, S/19780

Vote: 14 in favor, 1 veto (US).

The resolution expressed grave concerned with the Israeli use of collective punishment, including house demolitions. It condemned the policies and practices utilized by the Israeli authorities violating the human rights of the Palestinian People, especially the killing and wounding of defenseless Palestinian civilians by the Israeli army. Called on Israel to abide to the Fourth Geneva Convention, and urged it to desist from deporting Palestinians.

February 1989, S/20463

Vote: 14 in favor, 1 veto (US).

The resolution strongly deplored Israeli persistence in violating the human rights of the Palestinian people, in particular the shooting of Palestinian civilians, including children. It also deplored Israel's disregard of Security Council decisions, and called upon Israel to act in accordance with the Fourth Geneva Convention and relevant Security Council resolutions.

June 1989, S/20677

Vote: 14 in favor, 1 veto (US).
The resolution deplored the violations of the human rights of the Palestinian people, demanded that Israel would abstain from deporting Palestinian civilians for the occupied territories, and that it would ensure the safe return of those already deported. It also called upon Israel to comply with the Fourth Geneva Convention, and requested that the Secretary General would give recommendations on measures guaranteeing compliance with the Convention, and the protection of Palestinian civilians in the occupied territories.

November 1989, S/20945/Rev. 1

Vote: 14 in favor, 1 veto (US)
.
The resolution deplored the Israeli violations of the human rights of the Palestinian people, including the siege of towns, ransacking of homes, and confiscation of property. It called upon Israel to abide to the Fourth Geneva Convention, to lift the siege, and to return confiscated property to its owners. The resolution requested that the Secretary General would conduct on-site monitoring of the situation in the occupied territories.

May 1990, S/21326

Vote: 14 in favor, 1 veto (US).

The draft resolution attempted to establish a commission to examine the situation related to Israeli policies and practices in the occupied territories, including Jerusalem.

May 1995, S/1995/394

Vote: 14 in favor, 1 veto (US).

The resolution confirmed that the Israeli expropriation of Palestinian land in East Jerusalem was invalid, and called upon Israel to refrain from such actions. It also expressed its support for the Middle East peace process and urged the parties to adhere to the accord agreed upon.

March 1997, S/1997/199

Vote: 14 in favor, 1 veto (US).

The resolution expressed deep concern with the Israeli plans to build new settlements in East Jerusalem, and called upon Israel to desist from measures, including the building of settlements, that would pre-empt the final status negotiations. The resolution once again called on Israel to abide by the provisions of the Geneva Convention.

March 1997, S/1997/241

Vote: 13 in favor, 1 veto (US), 1 abstention.

The resolution demanded an end to the Israeli construction of the Jabal Abu Ghneim settlement in East Jerusalem, and to all other measures related to settlements in the occupied territories.

March 2001, S/2001/270

Vote: 9 in favor, 1 veto (US), 4 abstentions.

The resolution called for a total and immediate stop of all acts of violence, provocation, and collective punishment, as well as a complete cessation of Israeli settlement activities, and an end of the closures of the occupied territories. The resolution furthermore called for the implementation of the Sharm El-Sheikh agreement, and expressed the Security Council's willingness to set up mechanisms to protect the Palestinian civilians, including the establishment of a UN observer force.

December 2001, S/2001/1199

Vote: 12 in favor, 1 veto (US) 2 abstentions.

In the resolution, the Security Council condemned all acts of terror, extrajudiciary executions, excessive use of force and destruction of properties, and demanded an end of all acts of violence, destruction and provocation. The resolution called on the parties to resume negotiations, and to implement the recommendations of the Mitchell Report. It also encouraged the establishment of a monitoring apparatus for the above mentioned implementation.

As long as the US keeps Israel in the latest military equipment up to their eyes the US supports all that they do.

[xoxoxoBruce]

I'm glad they killed 508, 509, 516 & 517. Injecting UN troops into the Israeli Lebanese war would have been a bigger bloodbath than the Korean war.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Rexmons

The Palestinians are Arabs ~snip~

I used Arab and Palestinian to differentiate between the people that belong there and the ones that are just making trouble.
But since you Claim Palestinians are Arabs, no, they are not all Arabs.

According to Salim Tamari, 'nativist' ethnographies produced by Tawfiq Canaan and other Palestinian writers and published in The Journal of the Palestine Oriental Society (1920-1948), were driven by the concern that the "native culture of Palestine", and in particular peasant society, was being undermined by the forces of modernity. Tamari continues: "Implicit in their scholarship (and made explicit by Canaan himself) was another theme, namely that the peasants of Palestine represent - through their folk norms ... the living heritage of all the accumulated ancient cultures that had appeared in Palestine (principally the Canaanite, Philistine, Hebraic, Nabatean, Syrio-Aramaic and Arab)."

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Finally, in the late 80s, the Arabs organized Hamas to have better control over all the little terrorists they had groomed.

I know Hamas is a militant wing of the Muslim Brotherhood but everything I have read said it was founded by two Palestinians during the first Intifada in 1988. I'm sure they had the backing of the neighboring sects outside of Palestine but I haven't seen anything that suggests that Arabs outside of Palestine had a direct effect on its founding, but that it came from within.

Here is a good site on the founding of Hamas:
http://www.mideastweb.org/hamashistory.htm

Here are the supposed reasons why Hamas was elected in 2006.

Hamas's militant stance has found a receptive audience among Palestinians; many perceived the preceding Fatah government as corrupt and ineffective, and Hamas's supporters see it as an "armed resistance" movement defending Palestinians from what they see as a brutal Israeli occupation of Palestinian territories. Hamas has further gained popularity by establishing "hospitals, education systems, libraries and social services" throughout the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas

[Undertoad]

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

I am looking at it at face value. You can not build a successful agricultural society without land. If you do not have the land, you can not succeed, it is very simple.

They were given $14 million-dollar greenhouses! Their first instinct was to tear them down.

Give proof of that, and even that is not an excuse to violate the family's property rights. Do we bulldoze the home the families that have a murderer as a son? Of course not, neither should Israel.

When we talk about "understanding" we pretty damn well better put effort into understanding both sides. One of the things that the Pals have gotten reward for is suicide bombing. The family of the bomber was previously rewarded (by Saddam Hussein) a check for $25000 for each splodey-dope produced, and other Arab leaders have done similarly, and may still have such a reward system. In a poor society, this worked well to produce a steady stream of suiciders. What would you do?

What would WE do? Are you kidding me? If the US was faced with a similar situation, with Canadians proclaiming war on the US and suicide bombing, after a while there would be no Canadians left.

But Israel decided on a policy of building a wall and bulldozing the houses of the families. And what do you know, it worked.

You are a strong supporter of right to property since you are libertarian right? So why the hell are you defending a group that illegally takes away people's property and sends them to refugee camps? What about the 800,000 people that were kicked out of Israel in 1948, do they not deserve their land or what?

Bruce has covered this one, thanks B.

Wait, so if I I go into wolf's house and steal something, then go into xoxoxoBruce's house and steal something, then I go into your house and steal something but give it back to you after much protest I should be looked as merciful? I will start a life of crime then.

They were told "don't attack us over that border again or we will kick your ass and take your land." They attacked over that border. They had their land tooken. Now you describe that land taking as "theft". I suppose Israel should have said, "Please attack us across that border because we aren't going to do anything about it." Or perhaps, "If you attack us over that border we will declare 'total war' and kill every last one of you."

Hamas does all that stuff and you have a hell of a lot of arrogance to criticize who they vote for when you do not experience what they do.

Criticizing voting in terrorists is arrogance. This is what it comes to, from your side. You know, other people in the world far worse off, far harsher situations and treated more brutally, have not become terroristic. Why IS that.

It's five generations now since the original creation. Maybe time to grow the fuck up and stop hating and get on with life. Maybe time you stopped supporting the haters by endlessly rationalizing what they do. The state of Israel can produce enough jobs to support every single Pal. A perfect bootstrap for a nation is to have a wealthy nation on the border building factories and stuff. All they have to do is grow up. We all hoped once Arafat was gone it would cause them to do so.

Maybe, because most Palestinians can not see peace under Israel, but only when the state is destroyed.

The fact is, Palestinians have been lied to. And as a result, they have hope. They have the hope that they can destroy Israel and that this is the answer to all their problems. Because people like you (and most of Europe) have bought into all the lies, all the crap, all the nonsense and repeated it back to them. Oh yes, the reason you aren't successful is a wall. Oh yes, the reason you aren't successful is because the other is creating a bad condition for you. Oh yes, the whole UN agrees with you, to the point where real refugees having actual human rights violations are utterly ignored, just so that they can gang up on Israel again.

Until they are truly hopeless on that matter, nothing will change.