Burma Protests - Page 2

piercehawkeye45 · 09-30-2007, 05:59 PM

I thought that Iraqi experts were saying we shouldn't attack in first place because Iraq could never support a democracy? Cheney said it in '94 so it was obviously known before we went in the second time.

I was going to expand to "if you knew for sure that the people would take control of their lives" but then we leave realism behind...

xoxoxoBruce · 09-30-2007, 06:21 PM

The best laid plans of mice and men....

Planning the future for a whole bunch of people, without consulting them, is a recipe for disaster.

Urbane Guerrilla · 10-01-2007, 04:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

No, I have a problem with YOU removing fascists.
If the people don't want fascist leaders, THEY must remove them. That's the only way democracy happens.

So, "Why don't the Americans come and save us?", a call to action for me, is a call to inaction for you. Jee-zus, Bruce, I call that a lot of damned bigotry. People can't have democracy in spite of local fascistoids because they're foreigners??? They can't have any help because they're foreigners??? That seems the core of your argument.

The fascists must be removed for democracy to happen, and it simply doesn't matter who does the shooting as long as the fascists do not survive the experience. An American bullet will answer as well as a Burmese one, and you know this.

You think you have a problem, Bruce, but if you'd ever willingly think deeper, you'd realize you don't, really.

The America-do-nothing, America-win-nothing toxic waste from the Left has ruined your clarity of thought, Bruce. Time to pull up your socks.

DanaC, check this from the TimesOnLine: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle2545351.ece

-- down at the bottom of the column.

Ibby · 10-01-2007, 05:04 AM

http://dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/9/30/1159/29124.

xoxoxoBruce · 10-01-2007, 05:08 AM

By golly you're right, UG, lets declare war on China today, this morning, right now!
Push to button, drop the bomb... uh, well, er, better make that bombs.

SamIam · 10-01-2007, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

So, "Why don't the Americans come and save us?", a call to action for me, is a call to inaction for you. Jee-zus, Bruce, I call that a lot of damned bigotry. People can't have democracy in spite of local fascistoids because they're foreigners??? They can't have any help because they're foreigners??? That seems the core of your argument.

The fascists must be removed for democracy to happen, and it simply doesn't matter who does the shooting as long as the fascists do not survive the experience. An American bullet will answer as well as a Burmese one, and you know this.

Er, where does it say that the US must enter into every other country's internal conflicts? Do you know how many foreign wars we'd be facing, UG? Every US citizen under the age of 60 would have to be mobilized to serve in our new global war for "freedom." And Bruce is right, my bet's on China. We'll be "freedom" fighting there before you can say "Walmart" at the rate things are going.

I say we nominate some other country to be the Fighter of Fascism. Malta, perhaps?

DanaC · 10-01-2007, 02:41 PM

Or belgium?

DanaC · 10-01-2007, 02:45 PM

UG. I think this is probably the part you were pointing to:

Quote:

“Tell them to send foreign troops, UN troops,” said a young monk at the Mwe Kya Kan pagoda. “Please, fly them to our country to save our lives.”

Notice they are specificaly asking for UN troops. Why? Because that means no single country is invading theirs; instead the community of nations is intervening to stop the Burmese state killing its own citizens indiscriminately and without regard to the rule of either their own law, or international law.

They aren't asking us to go in and install democracy. They are most definately NOT asking America to launch an Iraq-style 'liberation'. What they are asking for is that the International Community intervenes using the legal powers vested in it by international law and consensus in order to allow their own internal democratic movement to progress without drawing governmental terror tactics.

piercehawkeye45 · 10-01-2007, 10:08 PM

Too complicated.

Bomb.Repeat.Bomb.Repeat.Bomb

Aliantha · 10-01-2007, 11:36 PM

And the reason they're asking for the UN and not the US (or any other specific country)? Because the UN has strict guidlines about human rights violations, and quite clearly, the Burmese government is violating human rights in this case.

Urbane Guerrilla · 10-02-2007, 01:19 AM

Quite so; what struck me about those quotes was that they were an indicator of just how bad the conditions under the junta were and are -- that Joe from Yangon is moved to ask even occasionally for foreign boots on his ground.

Some internal affairs, ripe with blatant and conspicuous injustice, simply must be interfered with -- thus taking advantage of the opportunity they present.

Aliantha · 10-02-2007, 01:29 AM

UG, you do realize history is not going to treat your views kindly don't you? I mean the views which express your desire to see your country take over the world and have everyone else love you for it.

tw · 10-02-2007, 05:41 PM

Burma may be the first nation wide uprising that never results in appropriate government changes, since the Czechoslovakia uprising in 1956. Burma can do this to their people since any power that be - that might demand protection of human rights - has been subverted or been turned cautious or adversarial by the United States. Any nation that could have answered UN calls for a solution will not do so for a long list of reasons directly traceable, in part, to America's overt attempts to undermine the UN (ie John Bolton) and to turn every problem into a 'them verses us' agenda.

Under George Jr, we now have enemies or adversaries everywhere where none existed 10 years ago. Situations such as Sudan, Somalia, Burma, Nigeria, and so many other central African problems will only get worse. The only exception - and no thanks to the US - was the French led solution on the Lebanese Israeli border.

There is almost no way to post on this subject without expressing bias. Those who support the current military government (who also agree with UG's political agendas) call it Myramar. Those who want protection for fundamental human rights call that nation Burma.

xoxoxoBruce · 10-02-2007, 05:49 PM

Burma, Burma, Burma, Burma, Burma, Burma, Burma, Burma, Burma, Burma, Burma, Burma.

tw · 10-02-2007, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Burma, Burma, Burma, Burma, Burma, Burma, Burma, Burma, Burma, Burma, Burma, Burma.

It could have been worse. The teacher could have washed your mouth out with soap.

10-01-2007, 05:04 AM	#19
Ibby erika Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: "the high up north" Posts: 6,127	http://dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/9/30/1159/29124. __________________ not really back, you didn't see me, i was never here shhhhhh

10-01-2007, 11:36 PM	#25
Aliantha trying hard to be a better person Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 16,493	And the reason they're asking for the UN and not the US (or any other specific country)? Because the UN has strict guidlines about human rights violations, and quite clearly, the Burmese government is violating human rights in this case. __________________ Kind words are the music of the world. F. W. Faber

10-02-2007, 01:19 AM	#26
Urbane Guerrilla Person who doesn't update the user title Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Southern California Posts: 6,674	Quite so; what struck me about those quotes was that they were an indicator of just how bad the conditions under the junta were and are -- that Joe from Yangon is moved to ask even occasionally for foreign boots on his ground. Some internal affairs, ripe with blatant and conspicuous injustice, simply must be interfered with -- thus taking advantage of the opportunity they present. __________________ Wanna stop school shootings? End Gun-Free Zones, of course.

10-02-2007, 01:29 AM	#27
Aliantha trying hard to be a better person Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 16,493	UG, you do realize history is not going to treat your views kindly don't you? I mean the views which express your desire to see your country take over the world and have everyone else love you for it. __________________ Kind words are the music of the world. F. W. Faber

09-30-2007, 05:59 PM	#16
piercehawkeye45 Franklin Pierce Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,695	I thought that Iraqi experts were saying we shouldn't attack in first place because Iraq could never support a democracy? Cheney said it in '94 so it was obviously known before we went in the second time. I was going to expand to "if you knew for sure that the people would take control of their lives" but then we leave realism behind...

09-30-2007, 06:21 PM	#17
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	The best laid plans of mice and men.... Planning the future for a whole bunch of people, without consulting them, is a recipe for disaster.

10-01-2007, 05:08 AM	#20
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	By golly you're right, UG, lets declare war on China today, this morning, right now! Push to button, drop the bomb... uh, well, er, better make that bombs.

10-01-2007, 02:41 PM	#22
DanaC We have to go back, Kate! Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Yorkshire Posts: 25,964	Or belgium?

10-01-2007, 10:08 PM	#24
piercehawkeye45 Franklin Pierce Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,695	Too complicated. Bomb.Repeat.Bomb.Repeat.Bomb

10-02-2007, 05:41 PM	#28
tw Read? I only know how to write. Join Date: Jan 2001 Posts: 11,933	Burma may be the first nation wide uprising that never results in appropriate government changes, since the Czechoslovakia uprising in 1956. Burma can do this to their people since any power that be - that might demand protection of human rights - has been subverted or been turned cautious or adversarial by the United States. Any nation that could have answered UN calls for a solution will not do so for a long list of reasons directly traceable, in part, to America's overt attempts to undermine the UN (ie John Bolton) and to turn every problem into a 'them verses us' agenda. Under George Jr, we now have enemies or adversaries everywhere where none existed 10 years ago. Situations such as Sudan, Somalia, Burma, Nigeria, and so many other central African problems will only get worse. The only exception - and no thanks to the US - was the French led solution on the Lebanese Israeli border. There is almost no way to post on this subject without expressing bias. Those who support the current military government (who also agree with UG's political agendas) call it Myramar. Those who want protection for fundamental human rights call that nation Burma.

10-02-2007, 05:49 PM	#29
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	Burma, Burma, Burma, Burma, Burma, Burma, Burma, Burma, Burma, Burma, Burma, Burma.

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