The Bible Is Bullshit

[DanaC]

I'm not sure I'd go so far as to say there's been atheist bashing ... here anyway... out in the world, though? Now that may be a different story. I don't know how it works for dwellars, but I have a couple of friends stateside who are extremely unwilling to let on to work colleagues that they are atheists, in case they draw negative attention, or damage their promotion prospects.

Now, I'm only talking a couple of people out of a fairly large group of American internet friends, but I found it interesting. If, as that seems to suggest, there is some kind of stigma attached to atheism, then that might explain the militant and slightly belligerent tone with which some vocal atheists approach the topic.

One of the things I particularly like about the Cellar is it doesn't end up in a bi-monthly, blood on the carpet, catfight between deists, theists and atheists; something which tends to happen in the other forums I frequent. That doesn't mean it won't get ...robust, from time to time. Whilst the thread titles about atheism and moral values etc weren't nasty the basic start point that atheism and moral values are somehow in opposition to each other, could be offensive to some.

*Shrugs* we all flip out at different stuff, and this is one of Radar's biggies. I used to be a little like that about religion, and my culture isn't half as suspicious of atheism as the one Radar is responding to.

[Yznhymr]

Originally Posted by DanaC

I'm not sure I'd go so far as to say there's been atheist bashing ... here anyway... out in the world, though? Now that may be a different story. I don't know how it works for dwellars, but I have a couple of friends stateside who are extremely unwilling to let on to work colleagues that they are atheists, in case they draw negative attention, or damage their promotion prospects.

Now, I'm only talking a couple of people out of a fairly large group of American internet friends, but I found it interesting. If, as that seems to suggest, there is some kind of stigma attached to atheism, then that might explain the militant and slightly belligerent tone with which some vocal atheists approach the topic.

One of the things I particularly like about the Cellar is it doesn't end up in a bi-monthly, blood on the carpet, catfight between deists, theists and atheists; something which tends to happen in the other forums I frequent. That doesn't mean it won't get ...robust, from time to time. Whilst the thread titles about atheism and moral values etc weren't nasty the basic start point that atheism and moral values are somehow in opposition to each other, could be offensive to some.

*Shrugs* we all flip out at different stuff, and this is one of Radar's biggies. I used to be a little like that about religion, and my culture isn't half as suspicious of atheism as the one Radar is responding to.

Outside of the Cellar, I have great converstions with Athiests/Agnostics. Here in the Cellar they seem more charged up and ready for a fight. Not sure why they are so defensive other than they are tired of hearing the majority of America that chooses a viewpoint in opposition of theirs. Sucks to be a minority. I am one at work and in my neighborhood. Anyone want to do a virtal fist bump on that one???

[monster]

it's not just that we're in a minority, but it's like being black 50 years ago ...it's ok and even encouraged to discrimanate against us, even if the law says it's not ok. FFS people want the 10 comandments in the law courts!

Whenever anyone is killed, the news report always has soundbite about how the deceased went to church regulary and was "god-fearing". WTF? You don't hear people saying "she was a lovely person, as white as they come...'

[Phage0070]

Originally Posted by Yznhymr

Outside of the Cellar, I have great converstions with Athiests/Agnostics. Here in the Cellar they seem more charged up and ready for a fight. Not sure why they are so defensive other than they are tired of hearing the majority of America that chooses a viewpoint in opposition of theirs. ...

I would suspect that people are more willing to argue a point such as religion on the internet because they are not worried about reprisal. In the USA it probably will not be physical of course, but there is certainly the danger of religious people not wanting to associate with an atheist or agnostic. I would suspect that some of your conversations were great simply because they figured that they were not going to convince you and they would prefer to part amiably.

There is certainly a lot to be said about being polite, but something about the "Oh, that's nice... (back away slowly)" leaves a bad taste in my mouth. In practice though I would probably not risk starting a controversial discussion with my neighbors.

[Ruminator]

This aspect of one's religious beliefs causing myself to be ganged up on I've not really experienced until I came here.
I didn't realize from the short time I read posts before registering here that there were raw feelings and thought I'd found a cool place to be able to become friends with people I could have calm, friendly discussions with and compare our knowledge, thoughts, and beliefs as friends.

It does appear to be possible with a few, but then getting ridiculed by a others and having my intentions and statements misunderstood by others makes it hard to want to try to engage further. The internet form of communication is fraught with this.
I have really appreciated the great responses, and learned a few new things from our exchanges otherwise.

[DanaC]

Don't be too put out Ruminator. Most people in those discussions met you with respect and and differing sets of views. This is a large group of people with an intimate and shifting active core. From time to time we break into groups who oppose one another on certain issues. Religion is sometimes the break point; other times it may be political or cultural. Occasionally it has even broken into groups along national lines. If you are discussing fundamentals, chances are there will be some people taking an opposing view. They then post and the thread takes on a rhythm. It's very easy from that point on, for the poster who's become the focus of that thread to feel ganged up on.

This is cool place to hang out and talk. But nor do we take prisoners in a discussion. If you bring out evidence, expect to be called on it. If you state something ephemeral and unmeasurable as unassailable fact and then take issue with others doing similarly, expect to be called on it.

Being mocked is something that'll happen. It doesn't in any way mean a lack of respect. There are people here who I think respect me but who are quite happy to tear me down in a discussion on welfare, for example. Don't worry about. This is the way the Cellar is. We are kind and warm and welcoming, but we also hunt in packs :P

As it happens, I don't think you've come in for that much stick. If anything I'd say people have been less inclined to move straight to mischief than is usual when religion is the topic. *smiles*

[Happy Monkey]

Arguing religion is better on the internet because if you get exasperated and walk away, you can come back later and continue as if nothing has happened.

[Flint]

You know, the people who make these videos often make the same mistake as the people they are criticizing: not substantiating their statements enough to convince anyone other than people who already agree with them.

I mean, is 15 seconds really long enough to summarize why, if God existed there would have to be physical proof? The air of finality with which people make such absolute statements only serves to discredit the premise of everything they are saying. It sounds like they didn't put much thought into it.

[DanaC]

Yeah....well, even a war of ideas needs grunts :P

[Ruminator]

Thanks Dana, I'm not put out, just taken back a bit from the experience while soaking it in and feeling what its like to learn from it. Its a new experience.
You gave a great description above to an ongoing, dynamic situation. As I said above its just quite different from what I'm used to.
Your history that you included is helpful in my understanding the nature of the cellar's character.
The "mischief" you mentioned, for me, is an encumbrance to the serious discussion at hand. I think that I got less than usual perhaps because I've tried to make it clear I'm not here to bash about with my beliefs and then disappear.
I've been very pleased with being a nooby how people have posted in response to me. Plus as a bonus it looks like I am as a christian in a minority here, providing me an additional learning opportunity.


Flint, you make a very good point.

[elSicomoro]

I think the Bible is a great book of faith...as well as a great storybook. Like this, from Ezekiel 22:

Jerusalem's Sins

1 The word of the LORD came to me: 2 "Son of man, will you judge her? Will you judge this city of bloodshed? Then confront her with all her detestable practices 3 and say: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: O city that brings on herself doom by shedding blood in her midst and defiles herself by making idols, 4 you have become guilty because of the blood you have shed and have become defiled by the idols you have made. You have brought your days to a close, and the end of your years has come. Therefore I will make you an object of scorn to the nations and a laughingstock to all the countries. 5 Those who are near and those who are far away will mock you, O infamous city, full of turmoil.

6 " 'See how each of the princes of Israel who are in you uses his power to shed blood. 7 In you they have treated father and mother with contempt; in you they have oppressed the alien and mistreated the fatherless and the widow. 8 You have despised my holy things and desecrated my Sabbaths. 9 In you are slanderous men bent on shedding blood; in you are those who eat at the mountain shrines and commit lewd acts. 10 In you are those who dishonor their fathers' bed; in you are those who violate women during their period, when they are ceremonially unclean. 11 In you one man commits a detestable offense with his neighbor's wife, another shamefully defiles his daughter-in-law, and another violates his sister, his own father's daughter. 12 In you men accept bribes to shed blood; you take usury and excessive interest [a] and make unjust gain from your neighbors by extortion. And you have forgotten me, declares the Sovereign LORD.

13 " 'I will surely strike my hands together at the unjust gain you have made and at the blood you have shed in your midst. 14 Will your courage endure or your hands be strong in the day I deal with you? I the LORD have spoken, and I will do it. 15 I will disperse you among the nations and scatter you through the countries; and I will put an end to your uncleanness. 16 When you have been defiled [b] in the eyes of the nations, you will know that I am the LORD.' "

17 Then the word of the LORD came to me: 18 "Son of man, the house of Israel has become dross to me; all of them are the copper, tin, iron and lead left inside a furnace. They are but the dross of silver. 19 Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says: 'Because you have all become dross, I will gather you into Jerusalem. 20 As men gather silver, copper, iron, lead and tin into a furnace to melt it with a fiery blast, so will I gather you in my anger and my wrath and put you inside the city and melt you. 21 I will gather you and I will blow on you with my fiery wrath, and you will be melted inside her. 22 As silver is melted in a furnace, so you will be melted inside her, and you will know that I the LORD have poured out my wrath upon you.' "

23 Again the word of the LORD came to me: 24 "Son of man, say to the land, 'You are a land that has had no rain or showers [c] in the day of wrath.' 25 There is a conspiracy of her princes [d] within her like a roaring lion tearing its prey; they devour people, take treasures and precious things and make many widows within her. 26 Her priests do violence to my law and profane my holy things; they do not distinguish between the holy and the common; they teach that there is no difference between the unclean and the clean; and they shut their eyes to the keeping of my Sabbaths, so that I am profaned among them. 27 Her officials within her are like wolves tearing their prey; they shed blood and kill people to make unjust gain. 28 Her prophets whitewash these deeds for them by false visions and lying divinations. They say, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says'-when the LORD has not spoken. 29 The people of the land practice extortion and commit robbery; they oppress the poor and needy and mistreat the alien, denying them justice.

30 "I looked for a man among them who would build up the wall and stand before me in the gap on behalf of the land so I would not have to destroy it, but I found none. 31 So I will pour out my wrath on them and consume them with my fiery anger, bringing down on their own heads all they have done, declares the Sovereign LORD."

This shit rocks!

[Ruminator]

That description of the city sounds a lot like some modern cities today, like Washington D.C., Chicago ...
The word alien there refers to those living in the land who were not of one of the twelve tribes of Israel.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Wetbacks.

[Sundae]

Ah God's much vaunted mercy.
An account I read recently had God make a woman pregnant with conjoined (so-called Siamese) twins. He sent them as a blessing.

Heathen doctors advised abortion, because it was unlikely they would go to term, or survive birth. But God prevailed and the two miracle girls lived. Sadly, they had to have a painful and invasive procedure, after which one of the twins died. Her experience of life was nasty, brutish and short.

Still, the parents were right, because the other girl survived and they praised God.

Well, until she also died this week.

But they praised God all the same for the blessing their daughters brought them and the fact that God does everything for a reason and obviously called them home. The odd thing is, it was the NHS (my money) that saw that 18 year old through her pregnancy, who paid the a team of 20 for the 11 hour long operation, that kept her ill-advised offspring in intensive care.

I'm all for the NHS, don't get me wrong. But it seems ingenuous to me that a teenager can keep foetuses unlikely to survive, against all medical advice, and come out of it saying to the press that it was God's will. Tax God and I might start letting him in on these decisions.

Sorry, wanted to get that off my chest.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Who the fuck said God was in on any of these decisions? Did God tell you he did all these things? Since you don't believe in God, why the fuck would you believe "An account I read recently" attributing this bullshit to God?