What do you hear when people say freedom? - Page 2

DanaC · 01-02-2009, 07:32 PM

Freedom is a much overused word. As is revolutionary.

Both of these concepts are now just useful tropes with which to sell us mobile phones and hair gel.

jinx · 01-02-2009, 07:34 PM

... to the extreme!!

Beestie · 01-02-2009, 08:02 PM

Freedom is independence. Which includes independence from anybody else's freedom. So when all the dependencies are removed from everybody's differing versions, what's left is real freedom.

Undertoad · 01-02-2009, 08:37 PM

What you need to know about freedom. The history of it is here:

http://cellar.org/discoveryoffreedom.pdf

You get a free PDF, hosted at the Cellar. I had to buy the book back in the day.

I understand that Ms. Lane admitted to some errors due to her haste in writing. The quality of her prose and the mighty fire it burns in your spine more than make up for it.

Pie · 01-02-2009, 10:49 PM

Nothing left to lose.

Beestie · 01-02-2009, 11:40 PM

I never got that line.

So when you have nothing left you are free?

Perhaps if Janis Joplin had traded places with someone who actually had nothing that could be taken away then she might have thought twice about writing it. Easy to speak for everyone when you define everyone as everyone except yourself.

xoxoxoBruce · 01-03-2009, 12:43 AM

In the U.S. freedom meant freedom from interference and control by Europe. At that time, in all the European countries (I'm including Britain), the have-nots were at the mercy of the haves. If you didn't own land your livelihood, indeed your life, depended on the people that did. It was a centuries old system with no way to break that cycle of poor, beget poor, beget poor. The excess poor, the ones the rich didn't need as help, were deported, or starved to death.

The fortunate people that came here, where there was land out the kazoo, had an opportunity the break that cycle and become independent. To survive and even flourish, by busting their butts. But if Europe remained in control, the system these people had escaped would be back to haunt them. Remember the European countries were still bickering over control of the "New World".

So freedom was the basis of the American Revolution, freedom from Europe and the old system... also freedom from their own fledgling government. That meant to the citizens just what was promised, life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. It didn't promise the government wouldn't set up rules, pass laws and control the country, it only promised it wouldn't kill you for no reason, that you were free to go live anywhere you could afford, and by your own labor make or break your fortune/future.

That's all they promised, and they spelled it out in the Bill of Rights, so the people would know what they were supporting, what they would fight and die for.
But then came the philosophers and the "freedom" that was clear and simple in 1776, got massaged like it was turkish taffy until the word didn't have a clear definition anymore.
The country has gotten populated, in some areas crowded, and life is much more complicated. So freedom, now without a clear definition, has been stretched to umbrella and justify every want.

I take my definition of freedom from whence it came.

DanaC · 01-03-2009, 06:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beestie

I never got that line.

So when you have nothing left you are free?

Perhaps if Janis Joplin had traded places with someone who actually had nothing that could be taken away then she might have thought twice about writing it. Easy to speak for everyone when you define everyone as everyone except yourself.

She didn't write it. Kris Kristofferson wrote it. Janis Joplin just sang the most famous version of it. Sang it with Bob Dylan in mind I believe.

Sundae · 01-03-2009, 06:49 AM

Freedom is a Sweet Word

Freedom is a sweet word
I heard it and my spirit leapt
But when I came to taste it
I found a free man there who'd crept
Right in and stolen all my children's freedom, precious freedom away
And he laughed because he'd bought the judge
The morning of the same day
Oh yes freedom is a sweet word

But freedom without justice
Is a freedom for a few
Who have bought the right to tell us
That their freedom lie is true
Oh freedom without justice
Grows up into slavery
If you're not a Barclaycard carrying
Member of the free

Freedom is a sweet word
It shines and glistens like a star
But where's the joy in freedom
When you're free to obey the colour bar
You're free to starve and free to die
And free to do anything but express
That Jesus never gave to anyone the freedom to oppress
You know that freedom is a sweet word

But freedom without justice
Is a freedom for a few
Who have bought the right to tell us
That their freedom lie is true
Oh freedom without justice
Grows up into slavery
If you're not a Barclaycard carrying
Member of the free

Dated now of course - apartheid was still a way of life when we were singing this. And I was still a Christian. It still moves me though.

regular.joe · 01-03-2009, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

When I hear someone say freedom I wonder what's really on their mind. Usually, if I listen long enough, they get around to what their bitch really is.

Everyone has an agenda.

Aliantha · 01-03-2009, 06:29 PM

When someone says they're free or that something else is free, I laugh to myself.

Don't we know by now that nothing in life is free. There is a price for everything. It's just a matter of when you have to pay for it.

There is no such thing as freedom. Only levels of obligation.

xoxoxoBruce · 01-03-2009, 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beestie

I never got that line.
So when you have nothing left you are free?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aliantha

There is no such thing as freedom. Only levels of obligation.

That's what it means, only when you've nothing left to lose, no level of obligation, are you free.

Aliantha · 01-03-2009, 09:53 PM

And very few people ever believe they have nothing left. Most of us are constrained by some ties whether they be emotional, physical or financial.

Beestie · 01-03-2009, 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

That's what it means, only when you've nothing left to lose, no level of obligation, are you free.

I interpret "nothing left to lose" as having nothing left that someone can take away from you which includes freedom. So to me, the state of having nothing left that can be taken away from me is captivity.

Being left alone to do as I wish without impacting others or being impacted by others is freedom. And that freedom comes with no obligation.

To say that there is no such thing as freedom but only levels of obligation is incomprehensible to me.

xoxoxoBruce · 01-04-2009, 07:35 PM

No, freedom is having no levels of obligation, and that's only possible when you have no stuff and no relationships... ie nothing left to lose. See?

01-02-2009, 07:34 PM	#17
jinx Come on, cat. Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: general vicinity of Philadelphia area Posts: 7,013	... to the extreme!! __________________ Crying won't help you, praying won't do you no good.

01-02-2009, 08:02 PM	#18
Beestie -◊\|≡·∙■·∙≡\|◊- Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Parts unknown. Posts: 4,081	Freedom is independence. Which includes independence from anybody else's freedom. So when all the dependencies are removed from everybody's differing versions, what's left is real freedom. __________________ ♠ ♥ ♣ ♦

01-02-2009, 10:49 PM	#20
Pie Gone and done Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 4,808	Nothing left to lose. __________________ per·son \ˈpər-sən\ (noun) - an ephemeral collection of small, irrational decisions The fun thing about evolution (and science in general) is that it happens whether you believe in it or not.

01-02-2009, 11:40 PM	#21
Beestie -◊\|≡·∙■·∙≡\|◊- Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Parts unknown. Posts: 4,081	I never got that line. So when you have nothing left you are free? Perhaps if Janis Joplin had traded places with someone who actually had nothing that could be taken away then she might have thought twice about writing it. Easy to speak for everyone when you define everyone as everyone except yourself. __________________ ♠ ♥ ♣ ♦

01-03-2009, 12:43 AM	#22
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	In the U.S. freedom meant freedom from interference and control by Europe. At that time, in all the European countries (I'm including Britain), the have-nots were at the mercy of the haves. If you didn't own land your livelihood, indeed your life, depended on the people that did. It was a centuries old system with no way to break that cycle of poor, beget poor, beget poor. The excess poor, the ones the rich didn't need as help, were deported, or starved to death. The fortunate people that came here, where there was land out the kazoo, had an opportunity the break that cycle and become independent. To survive and even flourish, by busting their butts. But if Europe remained in control, the system these people had escaped would be back to haunt them. Remember the European countries were still bickering over control of the "New World". So freedom was the basis of the American Revolution, freedom from Europe and the old system... also freedom from their own fledgling government. That meant to the citizens just what was promised, life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. It didn't promise the government wouldn't set up rules, pass laws and control the country, it only promised it wouldn't kill you for no reason, that you were free to go live anywhere you could afford, and by your own labor make or break your fortune/future. That's all they promised, and they spelled it out in the Bill of Rights, so the people would know what they were supporting, what they would fight and die for. But then came the philosophers and the "freedom" that was clear and simple in 1776, got massaged like it was turkish taffy until the word didn't have a clear definition anymore. The country has gotten populated, in some areas crowded, and life is much more complicated. So freedom, now without a clear definition, has been stretched to umbrella and justify every want. I take my definition of freedom from whence it came. __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

01-02-2009, 07:32 PM	#16
DanaC We have to go back, Kate! Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Yorkshire Posts: 25,964	Freedom is a much overused word. As is revolutionary. Both of these concepts are now just useful tropes with which to sell us mobile phones and hair gel.

01-02-2009, 08:37 PM	#19
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	What you need to know about freedom. The history of it is here: http://cellar.org/discoveryoffreedom.pdf You get a free PDF, hosted at the Cellar. I had to buy the book back in the day. I understand that Ms. Lane admitted to some errors due to her haste in writing. The quality of her prose and the mighty fire it burns in your spine more than make up for it.

01-03-2009, 06:49 AM	#24
Sundae polaroid of perfection Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 24,185	Freedom is a Sweet Word Freedom is a sweet word I heard it and my spirit leapt But when I came to taste it I found a free man there who'd crept Right in and stolen all my children's freedom, precious freedom away And he laughed because he'd bought the judge The morning of the same day Oh yes freedom is a sweet word But freedom without justice Is a freedom for a few Who have bought the right to tell us That their freedom lie is true Oh freedom without justice Grows up into slavery If you're not a Barclaycard carrying Member of the free Freedom is a sweet word It shines and glistens like a star But where's the joy in freedom When you're free to obey the colour bar You're free to starve and free to die And free to do anything but express That Jesus never gave to anyone the freedom to oppress You know that freedom is a sweet word But freedom without justice Is a freedom for a few Who have bought the right to tell us That their freedom lie is true Oh freedom without justice Grows up into slavery If you're not a Barclaycard carrying Member of the free Dated now of course - apartheid was still a way of life when we were singing this. And I was still a Christian. It still moves me though.

01-03-2009, 06:29 PM	#26
Aliantha trying hard to be a better person Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 16,493	When someone says they're free or that something else is free, I laugh to myself. Don't we know by now that nothing in life is free. There is a price for everything. It's just a matter of when you have to pay for it. There is no such thing as freedom. Only levels of obligation. __________________ Kind words are the music of the world. F. W. Faber

01-03-2009, 09:53 PM	#28
Aliantha trying hard to be a better person Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 16,493	And very few people ever believe they have nothing left. Most of us are constrained by some ties whether they be emotional, physical or financial. __________________ Kind words are the music of the world. F. W. Faber

01-04-2009, 07:35 PM	#30
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	No, freedom is having no levels of obligation, and that's only possible when you have no stuff and no relationships... ie nothing left to lose. See? __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

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