Censored Posts

[MaggieL]

Originally posted by Tobiasly
Did anyone cry "censorship" when UT decided to enforce that only he post new IOTD's, with all others going to Quality Images?

I think there's a profound difference between a forum where *topics* are to be started by only one person and one where *posts* are deleted to silence particular Cellar users. Last I saw, anyone was free to post unmolested in IOTD threads.

[Tobiasly]

Fine. Let anyone do whatever they want in Maggie's Weblog. That's your prerogative.

[Undertoad]

Utopia is still not an option.

[MaggieL]

Originally posted by Tobiasly
Fine. Let anyone do whatever they want in Maggie's Weblog. That's your prerogative.

Actually, I'm fine with how The Cellar itself has been run for these many years.

I do think it's a shame, and a serious departure from Cellar tradition, for forum ops to arbitrarily delete posts because they simply "don't like" the post or the people who posted them.

Cellar forums in the past have been a means of creating broad categories of topics, usually hosted by someone with interest or expertise in the subject matter: (Toad's Wine Cellar, MMM's Arms Locker, etc.). They were never merely the borders of personal fiefdoms, and that philosophy is reflected in the quote I posted from "What is The Cellar?"

I think going in that direction will seriously erode the Cellar's sense of community that has served it so well all this time. Maybe this kind of balkanization is an inevitable result of the vastly broader reach the Cellar now has.

I hope not.

[warch]

I'm flashing on highschool. I never did find a group friends that could get along, sit at the same lunch table. And I liked them all dammit. I like strong personalities. Mags, Dham, I enjoy the contributions from you both. You both can be insightful, self-righteous, obnoxiously funny, and purely obnoxious. I appeciate that. Keep your humor.I hope you can coexsist, if heavily armed. Dave- be patient, Maggie-give some space. Maybe the jaws will unlock. I like that our coffeeshop, so far, has different discussions moderated at different tables, but has had no locked back rooms with private parties. But whatever.

[MaggieL]

Originally posted by warch
You both can be insightful, self-righteous, obnoxiously funny, and purely obnoxious.

Sounds like a blend of the moderation schemes at Slashdot and Plastic. :-)

[Nic Name]

The changes to IotD made a lot of sense in the context of the evolution of the IotD Blogview that UT was planning at the time.

It wasn't censorship as much as it was organizational change.

My comments at the time were in the nature of a :p

[Undertoad]

If anyone wants to see real, unedited community in action, just check out your local Usenet groups. There are a few that have survived, but for the most part Usenet is a wasteland.

Look Mags, you don't *want* to get along with Dave, so posting in his section against his wishes was uncivil to begin with. Come on, it's not that hard to recognize where a message area is.

The choice becomes one between allowing Dave to delete your messages, or having his community self-police by creating their own little war with you if they want to maintain their sense of what his community is. Or for them to leave. How is that healthy to the community?

You know, when Nic said that Quality Images would be more interesting than IotD, I felt like that was probably a good benchmark for me to watch, for whether this sort of rules change is in fact productive. There are often quality images in Quality Images, and I've posted a few there myself. But I do feel like IotD is still more interesting than QI, and all that means is that I care about chasing stuff down and sharing it than the rest of you combined.

(I just flashed on Nic's statement as if he were saying it as "We will bury you!" aka Khrushchev yelling at the US in the 50s.)

When IotD improved (IMO) with rules changes, it made me feel like maybe rolling the dice with rules isn't such a bad thing.

Hey, in the end, it's just a message board, right?

[warch]

Right.

[MaggieL]

Originally posted by Undertoad

Look Mags, you don't *want* to get along with Dave, so posting in his section against his wishes was uncivil to begin with.

If "civility" is a requirement, a review of a *lot* of people's posts are in order. It's awfully hard to look like I "want to get along" with somebody who''s conducted a campaign (with nothing other than a desire for revenge, certainly no actual evidence) to convince folks I sockpuppeted that stream of dull-minded abuse from "parmenion".

I didn't think I should have to play kiss-ass (in English *or* German) with a moderator to use The Cellar. The Cellar in the past has always permitted all users to post in all areas. If someone's behavior became egregiously bad, their access was revoked completely. Even barak never got to that point...parmenion did, and I certainly agree with your judgement on that one.

If there's gonna be new rules now, then that's fine; the Cellar is your baby and has been since long before you bought it from Lisa. *I* think this departure is bad news. And I do think "What is the Cellar" needs some revision if that's where we're going, because what that describes isn't what we're talking about now. .

The choice becomes one between allowing Dave to delete your messages, or having his community self-police by creating their own little war with you if they want to maintain their sense of what his community is. Or for them to leave. How is that healthy to the community?

I think that's right at the crux of this. Will The Cellar continue to be *one* community, with one set of standards and rules? Or is it going to fragment into a collection of co-hosted blogs, each having it's own local laws and governance? Is there going to be "his community" and "her community" and "that community over there" ...or "the community"? I don't *want* "my own blog where I can ban whoever I want"; if I did, I'd have it already.

When IotD improved (IMO) with rules changes, it made me feel like maybe rolling the dice with rules isn't such a bad thing.

They're certainly your dice to roll.

I don't think there's anything at all wrong with a forum where threads are initiated only by the moderator...that allows a kind of forum-level branding that's difficult to get otherwise. At the same time, I think routinely subsetting the users allowed to <b>participate in a thread</b> (even to <i>read</i> a thread, a desire dham has already expressed) is a 'way different thing.

Continue on in this vein, and we can completely recreate the canonical 1990's BBS, complete with "user levels" , "secret sections" and "elite access".

[Nic Name]

That's "delete" access to you, Maggie.

[Undertoad]

I get it now: you wanted to use the policy as a wedge, and the policy gave first.

You know, I'd estimate that approximately 3000 people have been users of the Cellar and then stopped. As opposed to the 100 or so who've kept up with it. What is it that needs to be *maintained* here? Maybe it should've been different all along.

Find me 100 people - hell, find me 3 people who are willing to put up with each other 100% of the time.

As to the slippery slope, anything can happen with a dictator who thinks he's benevolent. But what I've been thinking about recently is how a society of imperfect humans can compromise on perfect principle and still NOT go down the toilet. It seems to happen all the time.

[MaggieL]

Originally posted by Undertoad
I get it now: you wanted to use the policy as a wedge, and the policy gave first.

Actually, I was just thinking that it still was a policy. But I hear you saying it isn't, so that's your call. You solicited input on the change, I gave it. 'Nuff said.

You know, I'd estimate that approximately 3000 people have been users of the Cellar and then stopped. As opposed to the 100 or so who've kept up with it. What is it that needs to be *maintained* here? Maybe it should've been different all along.

I think three percent retention on a site like this is actually doing pretty good...considering the scope of people that now have access to it, as opposed to the days when having USENET was actually a major draw.

But if you're not happy with 3%, then the rules probably do need changing...a lot. You could have the next Plastic or MeFi. Or Salon. It sure won't be The Cellar as it has been, but maybe that's not what you want anymore.

Find me 100 people - hell, find me 3 people who are willing to put up with each other 100% of the time.

If "putting up with each other 100% of the time" is the target, you can have a zillion three-person communities that just love each other all the time. And again, maybe that's what you want. Personally, I think that's a space that's already filled with chat rooms (and bots and op lists), but that's just my opinon.

But what I've been thinking about recently is how a society of imperfect humans can compromise on perfect principle and still NOT go down the toilet.

Oh dear...is this the Long Dark Night of the Libertarian Soul? :-)

[Undertoad]

I'm happy enough, it's not a question of not being happy, or what I want.

The rule change is not, like, a major change in direction... just a consideration that maybe it's better to have it this way. Maybe people are better served this way, maybe they like it better, maybe there are tradeoffs and everything isn't black and white.

I do think a lot about community, and what people really need, and how to provide it. I just haven't come up with a really good idea yet. If I did it doesn't go without saying that it would be applicable to the Cellar. Maybe it woud be, maybe it wouldn't. If it was something that would just tick everyone off, or that was totally commercial, I wouldn't do it here.

[jaguar]

Nice shitstorm maggie has managed to start here i see.

Frankly, its dhams section, he should be able to delete whatever the hell he wants, and block if he wants too. I had a private forum on here for use for a project that then got moved to its own message boards. It was access to selected members only (for refrence none of those members were/are active participants on these boards). On that basis alone Dham should be able to do the same. Its a private section, not the main boards, nuff said.

I'm entirely behind dham on this, he's spot on. This thread is proof enough, a quick browse though maggies post makes the point clear.