China conducts first test-flight of stealth plane

[Undertoad]

I don't know. It seems like a pretty difficult thing to do, but China has a space program.

There's one other thing I've heard about, which is that almost all oil inbound to eastern China goes through the Strait of Malacca, which is a 20 mile space between Singapore and Indonesia. If somebody was angry with China, for, say, invading Taiwan, they could cut off oil pretty easily and face China down with the limited amount of oil China has in reserve. That's where I'd send the carrier first, just to say, hey we might have a say here too.

[glatt]

The wikipedia entry for the Varyag is interesting.

China bought an under construction Soviet aircraft carrier that had been stripped down to its bare hull. They planned to use it as a floating hotel/casino, but that was either a cover all along, or the details broke down, and it never happened. The hull was towed to China, but broke loose from its tow line at one point during a storm off Greece, killing a skeleton crew member. When it finally reached China, at a towing cost of $5 Million, it was abandoned for a while. And it's now being rebuilt by the Chinese navy to use as a carrier. But it's not a full service carrier, because when it was being built originally for the Soviet Union, the only way it would be allowed to pass through Turkey to the Mediterranean is if it wasn't designated an aircraft carrier. So it has limited functions, which I don't really understand. It looks like a carrier to me.

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by glatt

So why doesn't China have an aircraft carrier?

How long does it take to build up a navy? The are growing really fast. They have basically pulled themselves into the modern world by their bootstraps in a decade. You'd think that would have included a navy.

They've historically had an extremely insular culture, and aircraft carriers are all about projecting force far from your borders. While I'm sure they wouldn't mind having one (Varyag), there are probably plenty of things far higher on their agenda.

[TheMercenary]

The Economist just did a multipage article about the growth of China and specifically it's military. Until recently the Chinese never really had a cause to project their power beyond their immediate region. They have acquired a few subs from the Russians and are masters are re-engineering much of their military hardware. My guess is they will steal their way into the 21st Century via industrial espionage.

http://www.economist.com/node/179029...ry_id=17902953

http://www.economist.com/node/179086...ry_id=17908622

[loTEK911]

From looking at Undertoads link, Owning an aircraft carrier seems a verry exclusive club. Out of 9 nations only 3 have more then 1. I don't know what goes into building one, but it's probably economically crippling. Hell, I'm shocked to see the UK only has 2 & Russia only has one.

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by glatt

So why doesn't China have an aircraft carrier?

How long does it take to build up a navy? The are growing really fast. They have basically pulled themselves into the modern world by their bootstraps in a decade. You'd think that would have included a navy.

They are currently building one. Fast. If I remember correctly they are fastest growing navy in the world right now.

Undertoad basically said what I have heard as well. Almost all trade from the Indian Ocean to Pacific Ocean goes through the Strait of Malacca (Singapore anyone??) and for the past 60 years it has been protected solely by the US Navy. I doubt China is seriously worried about the US or India, they are building a navy as well, shutting it down because of the economic consequences to all countries but it is in China's best interests to be able to protect their interests in the strait and Chinese funded ports in Pakistan and Indonesia themselves.


China will be interesting to watch in the upcoming century. There are predictions that they will attempt to control their surrounding area in similar manner that the US solidified regional power in the Americas. Gain sole naval control of the South China Sea (Caribbean Sea) and build a canal through Thailand (Panama).

[Lamplighter]

Remember Reagan's "Bear in the woods" commercials

Reagan embarked on building a 600-ship navy, and succeeded by the end of his second term.

Then Congress turned $ around and now the fleet is/has been reduced.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by glatt

But it's not a full service carrier, because when it was being built originally for the Soviet Union, the only way it would be allowed to pass through Turkey to the Mediterranean is if it wasn't designated an aircraft carrier. So it has limited functions, which I don't really understand. It looks like a carrier to me.

No catapult, severely limiting the types of aircraft it can handle, ie no serious fighters.

Originally Posted by loTEK911

I don't know what goes into building one, but it's probably economically crippling. Hell, I'm shocked to see the UK only has 2 & Russia only has one.

The UK will retire those two when their new one comes on line. The new one is $5 billion+.

[tw]

Originally Posted by loTEK911

From looking at Undertoads link, Owning an aircraft carrier seems a verry exclusive club. Out of 9 nations only 3 have more then 1.

An aircraft carrier is a massive expense. It has very limited functions. Is mostly about show.

The PLA took a slap in the face when Clinton stopped their aggressive behavior by sailing to carriers through the straits of Formosa. A carrier can slap the face of a nearby land force. And if the Chinese attacked it, well, even the PLA understood a negative political problem that creates.

Therefore the PLA decided it needed to learn technology. That military strength by numbers alone does not make it. Suddenly generals who said so were in power. And so the PLA has been in a 15 year program of becoming a technologically informed power.
China has an aircraft carrier under construction. It may appear in two years. But far more serious is the threat to all carrier fleets. Submarines and naval attack missiles. Missiles such as carried by the Kursk. And Exocet - an oldest technology – are still major threats. Carriers are limited pieces. Were completely useless in Desert Storm. Had almost no useful functions in Mission Accomplished. Mostly due to inferior planes, excessive costs, and a platform that can barely defend it self.

Appreciate what the Palins, Limbaughs, O’Donnels, and Cheneys in China are saying. China has already declared oceans down to Malaysia and out to lower Japanese island as property of China. Everyone here should already know about the Spratly, Parcel, and Senkaku/ Diaoyu islands. If you don’t, you know virtually nothing about China in an international world. These are focal points that define one major power block in China.

Which China is saying what? The Americans were told that China would take care of the Western Pacific. That America can have the eastern Pacific. So Vietnam is setting up to become a naval repair facility for the US Navy. There are consequences when one is more interested in their ego (we must be #1) rather than concentrating on things that make one #1 (we will innovate).

You see these same problems in business. Businesses who must be #1 - screw everyone else (AIG, GM) only did massive harm to themselves and all other Americans. Business that strived to innovate and grow into new markets (HP, Intel, the new attitude in Ford) are what make an economy, people, and the world a productive and peaceful place.

Unfortunately the PLA attitude is about reestablishing a Chinese domination over their rightful empire. Not all of China is saying that. But that is the same attitude that made so many American allies turn less friendly to America in the 2000s.

It certainly did not help when enemies of America in America became extremists. When China tried to buy an oil company - Unocal. Patriotic (educated) Americans knew this deal was proper and necessary. China that is growing needed the company. America who needed the money should have sold IF Americans are into business; not egos. These American extremists were telling China that only first class countries can own oil companies. IOW American extremists only empowered Chinese extremists. That 'not making the sale' disaster created by American howling will have consequences even 20 years later.

Do we decide to empower their extremists? Or empower Chinese who would do business - grow their nation into a member of the world?

[tw]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

The UK will retire those two when their new one comes on line. The new one is $5 billion+.

UK has so severely subverted its economy with international military adventures (is Mission Accomplished) as to have no money for any aircraft carriers. It may be French pilots sometimes flying from that British carrier. And that carrier may have to be sold or mothballed after four years.

No reasone to keep the old carriers. Harrier jets must be scrapped. No useful planes means a carrier is a threat to no one.

[tw]

Conflicts are created or averted by little things performed decades previous. For example, wacko extremists did what their knowledge and ideology told them to do. Do no planning for the peace. Violate basic military doctrines well defined even 2000 years before Columbus was born. These ideologues left Schwarzkopf to invent terms of Iraqi surrender; on the fly in 1990. As a result, a spectacular military victory was tarnished by ignorant civilians not doing the most important task in any war: negotiations at the peace table.

Not only were tens of thousands of Iraqis massacred in Basra. But America reneged on an even more important promise. We promised to leave. We lied. We remained for 20 more years. We could not have done more to inspire future wars and international terrorism. We only inspired wacko extremists - ideologue American citizens and Muslim radicals.

Obviously, stupidity expressed by dumb American extremists (ie Project for a New American Century) only created more problems. By even stating we must protect *OUR* oil. Rhetoric that even created the most famous Muslim radical: bin Laden and Al Qaeda. We are still paying the price of stupidity by extremists Cheney, Wolfowitz, Rumsfled, George Jr, Feith, et al.

To not learn history means reliving history. Wars are averted, only by moderates, long before the first conflict occurs. Informed (patriotic) Americans also know about confrontations over the Parcel, Spratley, and Bajo de Masinloc islands. Chinese confrontations with Vietnam and Philippines. Numerous Chinese naval vessels trapped a Philippines Coast Guard vessel for almost a week. Being uninformed was also why George Jr, et al massacred 5000 American servicemen to no purpose. Learn from history. Conflict due to what happened years and decades previous. And because some citizens remain uninformed.

Situation in the South China Sea gets worse because Chinese wacko extremists are now inspired and quite vocal. From the Malaya Business News are facts that should have every Cellar Dweller concerned:

The Philippines is at a loss over China's declaration its ships will stay permanently in Bajo de Masinloc, a declaration some experts say could lead to the Philippines losing 38 percent of its territorial waters.

Bajo de Masinloc, a triangular-shaped coral reef formation that has several rocks encircling a lagoon, is located 124 nautical miles west of Masinloc town in Zambales in the northwestern part of the Philippines.

China declared ownership of the South China Sea even up to Philippine beaches. If an adult and an American, you have no business not knowing this.

Easily identify Cellar extremists who see solutions in big guns, war, and Limbaugh lies. China has similar people. Chinese extremists are now demanding China go to war to take back what belongs only to China. The South China Sea.

Diplomacy is desperately needed to defang wacko extremists. A solution means empowering China's educated moderates. Actions only today will avert wars years or a generation from now.

Threats extend beyond the South China Sea. Chinese wacko extremists (who talk so much like Urbane Guerrilla or Adak) have said the US can have the eastern Pacific. That China will take charge of the western Pacific. Within China is a discussion no different from rhetoric posted in the Cellar. A political agenda that advocated Mission Accomplished and other military crusades.

Watch Chinese equivalents recite similar 'Mission Accomplished' rhetoric about the Senkaku Islands. From The Economist of 19 Jan 2013:

China and Japan are sliding towards war. In the waters and skies around disputed islands, China is escalating actions designed to challenge decades of Japanese control. It is accompanying its campaign with increasingly blood-curdling rhetoric. Japan, says the China Daily, is the "real danger and threat to the world". A military clash, says Global Times, is now "more likely... We need to prepare for the worst." China appears to be preparing for the first armed confrontation between the two countries in seven decades.

For the first time since 1987, Japan has empowered their pilots with rules of engagement to attack foreign aircraft. Japan has been constructing their first aircraft carriers in 70 years. No accident that a hardliner (Shinzo Abe) was restored as Prime Minister. Reasons for a future war have been that obvious for at least a decade.

Only moderates can avert a potential war. By defanging extremists before extremists make conflict inevitable. American wacko extremists advocated war over a silly spy plane. Only moderates (ie Colin Powell) averted war openly advocated by Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, etc. By ignoring that lesson, we later massacred 5000 soldieres in Mission Accomplished.

Every adult citizen must know what can get worse in the western Pacific. Not knowing defines an irresponsible citizen. Western Pacific countries have long understood the threat. Every patriotic American must understand why extremists on all sides should be mocked. Otherwise wacko extremists will massacre more American servicemen for no useful purpose.

[xoxoxoBruce]

That's walmart's problem.

[footfootfoot]

*snort*

[Lamplighter]

Not sure this is the best thread, but...


BBC News
28 May 2013

Chinese hackers 'compromise' US weapons systems designs

Chinese hackers have accessed designs for more than
two dozen US weapons systems, a US newspaper has reported.
Designs for combat aircraft, ships and missile defences were among those compromised,
a Pentagon paper found, the Washington Post reported.
<snip>

The compromised US designs include those for advanced Patriot missile systems called PAC-3,
an Army anti-missile system known as Thaad,
and the Navy's Aegis ballistic-missile defence system, according to the Washington Post.

The F/A-18 fighter jet, V-22 Osprey aircraft, Black Hawk helicopter
and the Navy's new Littoral Combat Ship were also compromised.
The F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, the most expensive weapons system ever built, was also cited on the list.

The reports do not describe the extent of the theft, but
correspondents say the hack could give China information that may
be used against the US in the event of a potential future conflict.

[glatt]

future hot conflict.

This breaking into our government files is a cold conflict already.