Fast and Furious

[xoxoxoBruce]

The lethal fallout from a botched operation by the US Department of Justice which allowed almost 2,000 illegally purchased firearms to be transported from the streets of Arizona to drug gangs in Mexico has been laid bare in a scathing Congressional report, which concludes that it resulted in countless deaths.

Yeah, but, but, they nailed that bastard that was growing a pot plant in his closet, using those energy hog grow lights that are melting the glaciers and drowning Polar Bears. And they have really cool black matching outfits, too.

[Fair&Balanced]

How many weapons are making their way into the hands of Mexico drug gangs and cartels as a result of loopholes in curent US gun laws that allow straw purchases at Texas and Arizona gun shops and gun shows?

...James Cavanaugh, a former ATF commander, said stemming the flow of guns to Mexico is a Herculean task given the lack of law-enforcement resources and political will.

“I don’t see how it’s realistically going to slow down if we don’t make changes in resources, laws and policies,” he said. “It’s important because people are being slaughtered.”

Agents and prosecutors have been especially passionate in pleading for Congress to pass a specific law banning gun trafficking, and have repeatedly watched as courts threw out cases against straw buyers who made purchases that were technically legal.

The law ATF relies on most heavily to stop the flow of weapons south makes it illegal for someone to lie on a form at a gun shop, claiming to buy a weapon for himself when he or she is really buying it for someone else. Proving the person lied, however, is difficult and often judges treat the indiscretion as a paperwork violation deserving of light punishment, according to law enforcement authorities. Without a specific gun trafficking statute, authorities say, they often can’t do much as they watch suspicious activity.

“It’s upsetting,” said Michael Bouchard, ATF’s former assistant director in charge of field operations. “What are you supposed to do? No one in their right mind would let a gun go across the border knowing that it would kill a law enforcement officer or be used to kill others. But there’s no easy answer.”

http://www.thecuttingedgenews.com/in...eid=&pagename=

I am all for an investigation that gets to the heart of the problem is not just a "gotcha Holder", like Mercenary's frequent witch hunts. The focus should be on identtifying and correcting the deficiencies in the system that allow Mexcian cartels easy access to guns in the US and not just on looking for a political scape goat.

Political granstanding is suggesting that every effort to close loop holes or strengthen gun laws is a secret plot to eliminate Second Amendment rights for law abiding citizens.

Political grandstanding is also blocking the appointment of the last two nominees for director of ATF (one Bush and one Obama) because the NRA didnt like the guys, leaving the ATF with no real leadership for the last five years.

[TheMercenary]

Editorial: Was Fast And Furious A Gun-Control Plot?

Bill McMahon, ATF deputy assistant director, testified that of 100,000 weapons recovered by Mexican authorities, only 18,000 were made, sold or imported from the U.S. And of those 18,000, just 7,900 came from sales by licensed gun dealers. That's 8%, not 90%.

http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnal...px?src=HPLNews

[Fair&Balanced]

From your source: 7,900 guns to Mexican cartels from licensed dealears; 10,00 from other (private sales, illegal sales, etc).

And rather than focus these 18,000 weapons from the US getting into the hands of Mexican cartels, you want to attribute any consideration of a programmatic or legislative fix as a "gun control plot"?

Between your "get Holder" obsession and now the "gun control plot", I dont see any serious interest on your part to really discuss the issue of thousands of US guns making their way into the hands of Mexican gangs and cartels.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Fair&Balanced

From your source: 7,900 guns to Mexican cartels from licensed dealears; 10,00 from other (private sales, illegal sales, etc).

And rather than focus these 18,000 weapons from the US getting into the hands of Mexican cartels, you want to attribute any consideration of a programmatic or legislative fix as a "gun control plot"?

Between your "get Holder" obsession and now the "gun control plot", I dont see any serious interest on your part to really discuss the issue of thousands of US guns making their way into the hands of Mexican gangs and cartels.

Yea, maybe you missed the "Editorial" part... not my views, just my post for food for thought. Because so far Holder and the ATF have failed to come up with a good excuse for the death of their agents from guns they knowingly let go to Mexico. The serious part of the discussion is on the part of people like you trying to soft peddle and apologize for the issue and act like it is no big deal that the DOJ and ATF circumvented the laws for some crazy ass plan that is killing not only Mexican civilians but now American agents.

[Fair&Balanced]

I get it. You made it clear from your first few posts that your interest in the issue was purely political - "Holder should resign" rather than addressing the issue and how to correct it.

You want to focus on the failure, assign blame, and not address the larger issue that is killing people on both sides of the border.

Have fun.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Fair&Balanced

I get it

You want to focus on the failure, assign blame, and not address the larger issue.

Have fun.

No, I don't want apologists to sweep the significant failures of the DOJ and ATF aside by down playing the issues. I want them to be held accountable and show us some of that Obamanation Transparency people like you love to tout as a hallmark of this administration.

Bringing a spot light to this issue is bringing attention to the contributory deaths on both sides of the border, esp on our side. We don't need to be contributing to the issue by having our DOJ and ATF giving them more weapons.

[TheMercenary]

Can you say, "Obstruction"?

Another point Melson clarified for investigators was that the ATF group carrying out the mission of Operation Fast and Furious was placed under the direction of the Arizona U.S. Attorney’s office. The U.S. Attorney in Arizona, Dennis Burke, is a political appointee of the Obama administration.

Melson appeared with only his personal attorney at the secret meeting with Congressional investigators. Melson was originally scheduled to conduct the interview on July 13 with Justice Department attorneys and his personal attorney present, but Melson abandoned DOJ representation after learning of a provision in his agreement to testify that allowed him to do so. (Issa staffer: Gunrunner investigation points much higher than ATF director)

“We are disappointed that no one had previously informed him of that provision of the agreement,” Issa and Grassley wrote to Holder on Tuesday afternoon. “Instead, Justice Department officials sought to limit and control his communications with Congress. This is yet another example of why direct communications with Congress are so important and are protected by law.”

Issa and Grassley wrote that Melson’s interview “was extremely helpful to our investigation.” They said Melson told them he did not review the “hundreds of documents” the DOJ is withholding until after the public controversy about the operation. Issa and Grassley said Melson claims he was “sick to his stomach” when he obtained the documents and learned the full story.

The DOJ has not been fully cooperative with a number of Issa’s and Grassley’s requests for documents and other evidence in this investigation. According to the July 5 letter, Issa and Grassley said Melson told them he asked the Office of the Deputy Attorney General (ODAG) to be more cooperative with Congressional requests for information, evidence and documents.

http://dailycaller.com/2011/07/06/is...#ixzz1RMfxk6mp

[Fair&Balanced]

I still dont understand why you think an investigation should not be broad enough to address the larger issue -- weak laws and limited resources.

Or why Issa shouldnt begin any investigation by revealing the details of the briefing he received on the program last year and explain why he didnt object.

But problems highlighted by the so-called Fast and Furious investigation, which enabled at least 195 guns to cross into Mexico, point to what U.S. authorities say is a broader enforcement crisis. Their efforts to stop drug cartels from smuggling thousands of firearms into Mexico each year are handcuffed, they say, by a debilitating lack of resources and an absence of statutes to outlaw gun trafficking.

Without a targeted federal gun trafficking law, prosecutors are forced to rely on other statutes that agents and prosecutors say are difficult to enforce and riddled with loopholes.

Chief among them: a frequently used law against lying on the ATF’s Form 4473 at a gun shop – especially in claiming the buyer is purchasing for himself, rather than someone else. But court decisions have made this “straw buyer” charge difficult to prove and judges often don’t take it seriously.

http://www.iwatchnews.org/2011/04/01...ay-atf-backers

But I know when the subject of weak laws is raised, the typical response from the right is "just another backhand attempt to weaken the 2nd amendment rights of law abiding citizens. We cant have that!"

Carry on with your one-side crusade for justice or more accurately your obsession to "get Holder" rather than address the issues that could make a difference in gun trafficking on the border.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Fair&Balanced

Carry on with your one-side crusade for justice or more accurately your obsession to "get Holder" rather than address the issues that could make a difference in gun trafficking on the border.

What joke. What the hell do you think the whole discussion is about. The gun trafficking is being done by the ATF and the DOJ fool, that is the problem. I can't see why you continue to shill for the Obama administration and think this is a non-issue. I doubt seriously that this will go away esp after the next round of elections.

[TheMercenary]

Now the ATF points fingers at the FBI instead of taking responsibility. Looks like it is going to become a true Mexican stand-off as they all stand in a circle and point loaded weapons at each other.... God damm fools.

[quote]The embattled head of the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives has told congressional investigators that some Mexican drug cartel figures targeted by his agency in a gun-trafficking investigation were paid informants for the FBI and Drug Enforcement Administration.

Kenneth E. Melson, the ATF's acting director, has been under pressure to resign after the agency allowed guns to be purchased in the United States in hopes they would be traced to cartel leaders. Under the gun-trafficking operation known as Fast and Furious, the ATF lost track of the guns, and many were found at the scenes of crimes in Mexico, as well as two that were recovered near Nogales, Ariz., where a U.S. Border Patrol agent was killed.

In two days of meetings with congressional investigators over the weekend, Melson said the FBI and DEA kept the ATF "in the dark" about their relationships with the cartel informants. If ATF agents had known of the relationships, the agency might have ended the investigation much earlier, he said.[quote]

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...#ixzz1RPbqq4oY

[Fair&Balanced]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

What joke. What the hell do you think the whole discussion is about. The gun trafficking is being done by the ATF and the DOJ fool, that is the problem. I can't see why you continue to shill for the Obama administration and think this is a non-issue. I doubt seriously that this will go away esp after the next round of elections.

Thousands of guns are making their way across the border into the hands of the cartels every year as a result of the AFT and DoJ?

WTF?

Of course, to talk about the need for tougher gun trafficking laws is just not on the table. It is heresy to even mention it.

And you think the problem of the thousands of straw purchases from border gun shops and gun shows will suddenly end now that this program has been exposed.

Right.

[richlevy]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

This is Obama's Iran Contra.

I guess that means that Holder will now have to dress up, find a few medals, and imply that he is a better patriot than the Congressmen grilling him.

And then Obama will have to keep on saying 'I forget' when asked about his role. Of course, being relatively young and in good mental health, he would be lying if he did this. The last president to do this was probably already in the grip of Alzheimer's and was telling the truth, much to the eventual surprise of his supporters.

[classicman]

H.R.1 (The American Recovery and Reinvestment Act)
Operation Gunrunner is specifically named for funding in this final version.
Sponsor:
David R, Obey (D)
Co-sponsors:
Barney Frank (D)
Bart Gordon (D)
James L. Oberstar (D)
Charles B. Rangel (D)
John M. Spratt Jr. (D)
Edolphus Towns (D)
Nydia M. Valzquez (D)
Henry A. Waxman (D)

[Fair&Balanced]

Originally Posted by classicman

H.R.1 (The American Recovery and Reinvestment Act)
Operation Gunrunner is specifically named for funding in this final version.
Sponsor:
David R, Obey (D)
Co-sponsors:
Barney Frank (D)
Bart Gordon (D)
James L. Oberstar (D)
Charles B. Rangel (D)
John M. Spratt Jr. (D)
Edolphus Towns (D)
Nydia M. Valzquez (D)
Henry A. Waxman (D)

Project (Operation) Gunrunner was initiated in 2006. Additional funding was provided through the ARRA in 2009.

Gun trafficking to Mexico is a nationwide problem with consequences on both sides of the border. In response, ATF implemented Project Gunrunner in 2006 as a comprehensive strategy to reduce firearms and explosives related violent crime associated with Mexican criminal organizations operating in the U.S. and Mexico by preventing these organizations from unlawfully acquiring and trafficking firearms and explosives....

...Since its inception in 2006, and through Fiscal Year 2010, ATF’s Project Gunrunner has recommended over 1,100 criminal cases and in excess of 2,500 defendants for prosecution. To date, Project Gunrunner investigations have resulted in the seizure of over 10,000 firearms and nearly one million rounds of ammunition destined for Mexico.

...$10 million in ARRA funding is hiring 37 ATF employees to open, staff (via new hire and relocation of senior personnel,) equip, and operate new Project Gunrunner criminal enforcement teams in McAllen, TX; El Centro, CA; and Las Cruces, NM (which includes a subordinate satellite office in Roswell, NM.). Additionally, these funds support the assignment of two special agents to each of the U.S. consulates in Juarez and Tijuana, Mexico to provide direct support to Mexican officials on firearms-trafficking-related issues.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/programs/project-gunrunner/

Operation Gunrunner is not the same initiative as Operation Fast and Furious.