8/20/2003: Palestinian militant

[goethean]

Thank you (sincerely) for the thoughtful Newsweek article.

From it:

The Turkish government made a massive investment (totaling well over $32 billion) in the Kurdish southeast. On a per capita basis, it has invested more in the Kurdish region than in any other part of Turkey.

Sharon's going to be all over that, isn't he?

[Undertoad]

I don't try to provoke anyone. I just post the things that I find interesting, that's all.

I couldn't provoke you all if I tried. It routinely amazes me which items spark a lot of posts. It doesn't follow much rhyme or reason. And one could provoke from either direction IN either direction too -- I could post these things with the expectation of getting a flurry of "yeah, you're right!" posts.

BUT I NEVER DO, and any notion of smugness you're getting is solely your own. It's really difficult for me to even address that when I so often go out of my way to tell people I may be wrong, that I expect to be disagreed with, etc. etc.

It's right in the "It's not about me" paragraph in the "What's the Cellar?" link at the bottom of every single page every Cellar user reads. It says: ...you can hate me, it doesn't matter. (I will only respect you more for it.) My goal as a virtual community operator is to do right by the community itself. Disagree with me if you like; I'm often wrong and need to be taught a lesson. Disagreement and honesty are critical to a community's health.

So Cellar IotD biased: compared to "big media", hell yes. Absolutely. One guy picks all the first images and that guy is utterly biased out of his skull. Cellar in general biased: enh, it's all over the place. It flies one way for a while, then it flies another.

Tell you what though: I *far* prefer it when it flies away from me. I like having a diverse, interesting community with all types on board and happy to stick their two cents in for their point of view.

So today IotD flew away from you. Now here's the big question: can you take it for a day? Or is it upsetting to you to know that there is someone who disagree with your point of view, so strongly that he'll make it a priority?

Does our disagreement on this make my other images less cool to you? I still want to share them with you, and hope you'll find them as cool as I do.

Finally, I voted for Gore in 2000, and Bush is not currently my first choice in 2004.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Thanks, UT. They are an amazing group of pictures. Your remarks are your opinion of them. That is the right of ANYONE posting in the Cellar. OK this thread is your's but there is plenty of places to post, even pictures. Anyone that doesn't like your choice of IotD can bookmark the Cellar and skip them. Whada Country.

[quzah]

Originally posted by goethean
Please. Undertoad's post today is political and partisan from beginning to end.

I guess we each see what we want to see. Something similar to 'selective memory'. We only remember what we want to remember.

When I see the three pictures in succession I get:

1) Here is a father with his children, all smiling.
2) Here is the same man with a rifle and a source of religious belief. (It could just as easily have been the Bible, the Koran, the Kama Sutra for all I care.)
3) Here is the same man having suffered a horrible tragedy because of his actions.

And before you get all holier than thou on me, it is because of his actions. If he really cared more about his family than where he was living, or what he was believing, he would have removed them from the situation.

People fled insert any given country: Britan, and came to America to start a new country; Cuba and came to America; fled Russia; fled Vietnam; fled from one side of Germany to the other, the list is endless.

That picture to me could have just as easily been an Isralie being shredded by a suicide bomber. That picture could have been... hell any place of warfare. It could have been the Vietnamese, as you suggest. It could have been anyone.

Look at the pictures themselves, and don't look at the individual. Look at the concept, the story the picture implies. You can read that story without having any captions at all. Put any one you want as the subject of that story, and the story turns out the same.

The individual is irrelevant. The story is retold countless times throughout history. This truely is the never ending story.

Quzah.

[warch]

How utterly boring this would be if UT didnt push some buttons and make me think. And everythingis political.

This IOD is great. A comic strip of WTF is going on. Did a Palestinian man hugs his kids, wave the Koran, and then kill himself inorder to kill other people's kids. Yes. And the gripping rationale that goes into that act is what stops peace. Palestinians refuse peace. No compromise is just. So, how can suicide bombing be reframed as irrational to Palestinians? As failure and waste?

I'm not ready to concede to dave's vision yet. I'm hoping for some inspiration.

[juju]

He's not "obsessed with painting Palestinians as irrational". He's obsessed with making you think by using the power of the visual medium, and with promoting discussion.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Syc, did you delete a post or am I going crazy?

What a straight line, eh.

[elSicomoro]

You're crazy.

So, let's say UT was being biased. And this matters...why?

[Undertoad]

Come to think of it, the notion that this is a one-sided display of images is purely bias.

The first shot was given to the media by the Palestinians. That is the image that they want you to see, and I've included it.

The second shot was the video made by the man himself. He expected and wanted his image to be shown.

The third shot is what all terrorists want - maximum emotional output for their effort.

Today Abu Mazen said that he would go after the people responsible for this, so the official word of the Palestinian government is that they too are against this sort of thing.

So the other side I'm not showing is not the Palestinians, but the Palestinian terrorists.

[Nothing But Net]

<a href="http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=NCOTMA2RVZMKWCRBAEKSFEY?type=topNews&storyID=3312353">Israeli forces 'raid' Palestinian towns of Jenin and Nablus, arrest two men.</a>

Sounds like a real fucking slow night on my side of town!

[jaguar]

I'm certain you'll find more than a few ppl willing to debate you..

Famous last words =)
There are certain political lines that emerge (it's not rocket science) after you're here for more than a few posts. While people will generally fall along these lines and thus the following debate often rather lacklustre occasionally there is some kind of trigger that ends up with people all over the place and then it can be really, really interesting.

There have been some fantastic discussions and debates over time and some depressingly infantile spats that have resulted in some great people (Xumagad comes to mind) leaving. Ut has as many biases as anyone else, he (generally) does a goodish job of keeping them under control in here but overall the aim is to generate discussion, cute animal pics (except on fridays) just plain aren't going to get the same quality of discussion as something as emotionally charged as suicide bombing.

[Nothing But Net]

Actual quote, or not?

"We had to destroy the village in order to save it"

"Hearts and minds"

"The horror! The horror!"

"Let's blow up a bunch of innocent non-combatants! Infants included! That will sure bring the world around to our position!"

Should be a poll.

[Undertoad]

The Hamas bus bombing was allegedly in return for Israel's targeting of previous Hamas guys. Therefore, this is the other side of the story: Israel blew up this smart white 4-door VW Golf containing the leader of Hamas, apparently the guy who ordered the bus bombing, and his two bodyguards.

If you prefer, consider this to be the other side for the next Hamas activity.

Moments later it was swarmed upon by literally hundreds of Palestinians who pulled the car's remnants apart with crowbars.

[Beletseri]

pulled apart with crowbars....

Looking for talismans?

[Undertoad]

No, body parts.