Chemical Dependency/Illness or weakness - Page 2

Brown Thrasher · 03-06-2005, 09:27 PM

Such a contoversial issue, as well as important issue. I figured if cellarites could debate about the existence or not of God for six months maybe this serious issue would draw some intrest. Guess not. Did not expect to step on so many toes. I may be wrong but it seems to me, as many of you that are either effected directly or indirectly would have some imput. Get real!!!!!!

Brett's Honey · 03-06-2005, 10:52 PM

I totally agree that alcohol and drug addiction is a choice - not a disease. They are addictions extremely difficult to overcome for a lot of people, but still choices. The fact that some people do quit, some with rehab or other forms of help, some cold turkey, shows me that unlike a disease, it is a choice. I have family members that I love with some of these problems, so I am familiar with this issue.
My 43 year old ex sister-in-law draws SSI - Supplemental Security Income because she is a drug addict and alcoholic and therefore supposedly unable to work!! Her history of a few emergency room visits due to overdoses (some suicide ?? attempts), admitting herself to rehab centers a few times, and twice being committed to rehab against her will by family members apparently was enough documentation for Social Security for her to qualify for a monthly SSI check. I guess she'll receive these forever, she's drawn it for about 6 or 7 years so far. I think this is just WRONG! Sure, she had a rough childhood, had two kids by the age of 16, has been married and divorced eight times, but life's been rough for a lot of us.
A friend of mine with MS struggled for over two years to become eligible for SSI. By the time she started receiving checks she was in a wheelchair, couldn't walk at all, couldn't comb her hair, get herself to the bathroom, or even write a check without stopping a couple of times to take a break due to the severe pain. THAT is a disease!

wolf · 03-07-2005, 12:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brown Thrasher

Such a contoversial issue, as well as important issue. I figured if cellarites could debate about the existence or not of God for six months maybe this serious issue would draw some intrest. Guess not. Did not expect to step on so many toes. I may be wrong but it seems to me, as many of you that are either effected directly or indirectly would have some imput. Get real!!!!!!

Cellar debates rarely result in one person winning the others over to his/her side.

Some threads also develop more slowly than others.

Give it a chance.

xoxoxoBruce · 03-07-2005, 04:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brown Thrasher

Such a contoversial issue, as well as important issue. I figured if cellarites could debate about the existence or not of God for six months maybe this serious issue would draw some intrest. Guess not. Did not expect to step on so many toes. I may be wrong but it seems to me, as many of you that are either effected directly or indirectly would have some imput. Get real!!!!!!

Go back and read your own posts.

Quote:

Why can their be four siblings in a family of an alcoholic and only two of them become addicted to some form of addictive substance. On second thought, even those that do not become addicted still have a great deal of difficulty dealing with lifes issues. There addiction or obsession if you like may be shown through work, gambling, eating, etc........... and then there are some who appear for some reason to be fairly normal people.... there are alot of questions concerning addiction.

You're right, there's a hell of a lot of questions and damn few answers, so you end up swapping opinions with nothing to back it up.

Trilby · 03-07-2005, 08:48 AM

*SIGH*---Brown Thrasher---I do sincerely believe that drug addiction and alcoholism are diseases!!. I was being facetious earlier when I said they should be sterilized then shot (hence, the rolleyes face smiley--those are clues to the writers meaning) and I in no way intended to make light of the very sick girl in the mugshots. You have NO idea just HOW close to home this topic is for me, you don't know me at ALL so lighten up a little and understand that different people have different styles and ways of relating. CRIMONY!

Happy Monkey · 03-07-2005, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brett's Honey

I totally agree that alcohol and drug addiction is a choice - not a disease. They are addictions extremely difficult to overcome for a lot of people, but still choices. The fact that some people do quit, some with rehab or other forms of help, some cold turkey, shows me that unlike a disease, it is a choice.

While that is evidence, it's not proof. People have recovered from diseases generally considered incurable before.

Brown Thrasher · 03-07-2005, 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Go back and read your own posts. You're right, there's a hell of a lot of questions and damn few answers, so you end up swapping opinions with nothing to back it up.

I agree there are few answers. However, I think there is more scientific evidence concerning this issue; than for example is there a God or not.......
As I have discussed in other post, there is a book called the AMA that considers addiction a biological issue,ie.. an illness......

Brown Thrasher · 03-07-2005, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brianna

*SIGH*---Brown Thrasher---I do sincerely believe that drug addiction and alcoholism are diseases!!. I was being facetious earlier when I said they should be sterilized then shot (hence, the rolleyes face smiley--those are clues to the writers meaning) and I in no way intended to make light of the very sick girl in the mugshots. You have NO idea just HOW close to home this topic is for me, you don't know me at ALL so lighten up a little and understand that different people have different styles and ways of relating. CRIMONY!

I sincerely apologize....

russotto · 03-07-2005, 10:08 AM

Calling drug addiction a "disease" is both insulting to and demeaning of the addict. It's demeaning in that it promotes a view of the addict as a drug-seeking automaton, removing personal choice from the equation. It's insulting in that it indicates there's something wrong with addiction in itself.

There's a drug that probably a lot more than 1 in 10 Americans are addicted to, the mild stimulant known as caffeine. A mild addiction, but an addiction nontheless. Should addicts think of themselves as diseased? If someone were to offer to wave a magic wand and cure the addiction, would they be wrong to refuse, or to go back to using after being cured? I don't think so.

The harder drugs (including alcohol) are are a bigger problem for the addict. But it's not impossible to be addicted to them without destroying oneself, either. Wolf, you only see the worst of them; there's plenty of drug addicts out there who will not be stepping into your workplace.

Undertoad · 03-07-2005, 11:01 AM

But here's the kicker: most disease is closely related to choices.

The top three leading causes of death (in the US) are heart disease, cancer and stroke. The top three actual causes of death -- the activities leading to these causes -- are tobacco use, poor diet with physical inactivity and alcohol consumption.

Is heart disease not a disease because people give it to themselves?

mrnoodle · 03-07-2005, 01:53 PM

"I'm not an alcoholic, I'm a drunkard; drunkards don't like to go to meetings." -- Jackie Gleason (if I'm not mistaken).

Brown Thrasher · 03-07-2005, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by russotto

Calling drug addiction a "disease" is both insulting to and demeaning of the addict. It's demeaning in that it promotes a view of the addict as a drug-seeking automaton, removing personal choice from the equation. It's insulting in that it indicates there's something wrong with addiction in itself.

There's a drug that probably a lot more than 1 in 10 Americans are addicted to, the mild stimulant known as caffeine. A mild addiction, but an addiction nontheless. Should addicts think of themselves as diseased? If someone were to offer to wave a magic wand and cure the addiction, would they be wrong to refuse, or to go back to using after being cured? I don't think so.

The harder drugs (including alcohol) are are a bigger problem for the addict. But it's not impossible to be addicted to them without destroying oneself, either. Wolf, you only see the worst of them; there's plenty of drug addicts out there who will not be stepping into your workplace.

Russ, I am not talking about physical dependence as you have described.
Of course, people become physically dependent on caffien, tobacco, etc....
I am talking about alcoholism and drug addiction that kill people everyday.
Go back and read other post, if you don't mind. Alcoholism and drug addiction is one of our nations most prevelent health problems. By the way, I hope I did not insult you.......

by the way, it is probably insulting to alot of alcoholics and addicts that you would put a caffiene habit in the same class as the horrible illness they are experiencing or trying to overcome.

Brown Thrasher · 03-07-2005, 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

"I'm not an alcoholic, I'm a drunkard; drunkards don't like to go to meetings." -- Jackie Gleason (if I'm not mistaken).

That is what I like honesty. I was hoping to hear from people suffering from addiction or trying to overcome it. Bottom line. People who do not experience addiction as I am describing have no idea; just like someone not suffering from cancer has no idea...... they may have seen it up close, but they really have no idea...... not even doctors or therapist trying to help the addicted. I don't care how educated they are. Without experiencing addiction there is no real understanding...... I have no idea what it feels like to be dying from MS for example........

I am in no way suggesting that you have the illness. Thanks for the post!!!!

Brett's Honey · 03-07-2005, 09:58 PM

[quote]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brett's Honey

I totally agree that alcohol and drug addiction is a choice - not a disease. They are addictions extremely difficult to overcome for a lot of people, but still choices.

When I wrote this post, I had just picked up my son from his Dad's house - which is, at this time, a half-way house. I've been so proud of him, and happy and hopeful for him thinking he is really going to "make it" this time, after 13 DUI's, many times in jail, 3 times in rehab, etc. It hurts me and my son to see him struggle and hurt fighting alcoholism. When we were leaving, he told us he was going out drinking later with some guys from work. He didn't look happy about it at all, but he was going. He had made the decision - the choice. So, the three of us looked sadly at each other and said good-bye. My son didn't talk on the way home. I didn't either, I didn't know what to say. He's been sober this time for about a month. Seeing my ex hurt my son makes me mad, but still I wish so much that he could stay sober and be happy.
But didn't he make the choice???

Trilby · 03-07-2005, 10:39 PM

[quote=Brett's Honey]

Quote:

When I wrote this post, I had just picked up my son from his Dad's house - which is, at this time, a half-way house. I've been so proud of him, and happy and hopeful for him thinking he is really going to "make it" this time, after 13 DUI's, many times in jail, 3 times in rehab, etc. It hurts me and my son to see him struggle and hurt fighting alcoholism. When we were leaving, he told us he was going out drinking later with some guys from work. He didn't look happy about it at all, but he was going. He had made the decision - the choice. So, the three of us looked sadly at each other and said good-bye. My son didn't talk on the way home. I didn't either, I didn't know what to say. He's been sober this time for about a month. Seeing my ex hurt my son makes me mad, but still I wish so much that he could stay sober and be happy.
But didn't he make the choice???

Wow--there are so many layers of hurt in there, I don't know where to start so I will just say that my heart goes out to all three of you. Your son!! His son!! Insanity!! How can he be staying at a halfway house that doesn't kick him out for drinking?? I thought that was the whole purpose FOR the 1/2way house. WHY would he say that in front of you two?? There has got to be more to this story. Is he looking for your sympathy, etc.? Addicts are good at that angle as I'm sure you are well aware. A guy with that track record has got to know his days are numbered. Does he have a sponsor, etc? Drinking and drug use is a compulsion for the addict. At times it feels like there is NO choice but to use. If that sounds crazy, then you're not an addict.

03-06-2005, 09:27 PM	#16
Brown Thrasher self=proclaimed ass looking for truth whatever that means Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: A treehouse Posts: 193	Such a contoversial issue, as well as important issue. I figured if cellarites could debate about the existence or not of God for six months maybe this serious issue would draw some intrest. Guess not. Did not expect to step on so many toes. I may be wrong but it seems to me, as many of you that are either effected directly or indirectly would have some imput. Get real!!!!!! __________________ Let it rain, it eases pain.....

03-07-2005, 08:48 AM	#20
Trilby Slattern of the Swail Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 15,654	SIGH---Brown Thrasher---I do sincerely believe that drug addiction and alcoholism are diseases!!. I was being facetious earlier when I said they should be sterilized then shot (hence, the rolleyes face smiley--those are clues to the writers meaning) and I in no way intended to make light of the very sick girl in the mugshots. You have NO idea just HOW close to home this topic is for me, you don't know me at ALL so lighten up a little and understand that different people have different styles and ways of relating. CRIMONY! __________________ In Barrie's play and novel, the roles of fairies are brief: they are allies to the Lost Boys, the source of fairy dust and ...They are portrayed as dangerous, whimsical and extremely clever but quite hedonistic. "Shall I give you a kiss?" Peter asked and, jerking an acorn button off his coat, solemnly presented it to her. —James Barrie Wimminfolk they be tricksy. - ZenGum

03-07-2005, 01:53 PM	#26
mrnoodle bent Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: under the weather Posts: 2,656	"I'm not an alcoholic, I'm a drunkard; drunkards don't like to go to meetings." -- Jackie Gleason (if I'm not mistaken). __________________ Sìn a nall na cuaranan sin. -- Cha mhór is fheairrde thu iad, tha iad coltach ri cat air a dhathadh

03-06-2005, 10:52 PM	#17
Brett's Honey whatever Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 308	I totally agree that alcohol and drug addiction is a choice - not a disease. They are addictions extremely difficult to overcome for a lot of people, but still choices. The fact that some people do quit, some with rehab or other forms of help, some cold turkey, shows me that unlike a disease, it is a choice. I have family members that I love with some of these problems, so I am familiar with this issue. My 43 year old ex sister-in-law draws SSI - Supplemental Security Income because she is a drug addict and alcoholic and therefore supposedly unable to work!! Her history of a few emergency room visits due to overdoses (some suicide ?? attempts), admitting herself to rehab centers a few times, and twice being committed to rehab against her will by family members apparently was enough documentation for Social Security for her to qualify for a monthly SSI check. I guess she'll receive these forever, she's drawn it for about 6 or 7 years so far. I think this is just WRONG! Sure, she had a rough childhood, had two kids by the age of 16, has been married and divorced eight times, but life's been rough for a lot of us. A friend of mine with MS struggled for over two years to become eligible for SSI. By the time she started receiving checks she was in a wheelchair, couldn't walk at all, couldn't comb her hair, get herself to the bathroom, or even write a check without stopping a couple of times to take a break due to the severe pain. THAT is a disease!

03-07-2005, 10:08 AM	#24
russotto Professor Join Date: Jan 2001 Posts: 1,788	Calling drug addiction a "disease" is both insulting to and demeaning of the addict. It's demeaning in that it promotes a view of the addict as a drug-seeking automaton, removing personal choice from the equation. It's insulting in that it indicates there's something wrong with addiction in itself. There's a drug that probably a lot more than 1 in 10 Americans are addicted to, the mild stimulant known as caffeine. A mild addiction, but an addiction nontheless. Should addicts think of themselves as diseased? If someone were to offer to wave a magic wand and cure the addiction, would they be wrong to refuse, or to go back to using after being cured? I don't think so. The harder drugs (including alcohol) are are a bigger problem for the addict. But it's not impossible to be addicted to them without destroying oneself, either. Wolf, you only see the worst of them; there's plenty of drug addicts out there who will not be stepping into your workplace.

03-07-2005, 11:01 AM	#25
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	But here's the kicker: most disease is closely related to choices. The top three leading causes of death (in the US) are heart disease, cancer and stroke. The top three actual causes of death -- the activities leading to these causes -- are tobacco use, poor diet with physical inactivity and alcohol consumption. Is heart disease not a disease because people give it to themselves?

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