Ecologically-friendly nuclear

[russotto]

Originally Posted by wolf

I like the interesting puffy, almost mushroom shaped clouds from the tops of the towers. I see them most days on the way to work.

When there's heavy cloud cover, sometimes the vapor from the cooling towers will extend to the cloud base, making it look like Limerick is the source of the whole thing. Occasionally there will be only one cloud, presumably because the other unit has been shut down. Very rarely is there none at all.

Random fact: While New Zealand is famously nuclear-free, they have a geothermal power station with a basically identical cooling tower.

[Undertoad]

Let's be fair R. 358 MW from Cromby, of which I was thankfully unaware, and 2400 MW from Limerick... probably nets out to the Cellar's non-peak-usage sources being about 87% nuclear, 13% coal/oil/gas. I regret the error.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Let's be fair R. 358 MW from Cromby, of which I was thankfully unaware, and 2400 MW from Limerick... probably nets out to the Cellar's non-peak-usage sources being about 87% nuclear, 13% coal/oil/gas. I regret the error.

Except that all 358 MW from Cromby and the power from Montgomery County Recycling center must be consumed first before Richmond, Schuylkill, Delaware, Eddystone, DRMI, Eagle Point, Camden Paper, Limerick, Burlington, Croyden, US Steel, and Mercer take up UTs load. Those other fossil fuel plants that would also contribute alongside Limerick were conveniently forgotten (if distance is a criteria). So now we have a number still somewhere at 20% nuclear.

Limerick power is provided through Cromby. Limerick only provides UT's power when Cromby is overloaded. That based upon distance as the criteria.

However electricity is more fungible. Therefore the chart at the start of this thread is more relevant. About 20% of UT's electricity from the grid is nuclear. Most of his electricity - by far the dominant amount - is fossil fuel. His nearest plants in all directions are not nuclear. His nearest electricity sources are all fossil fuel plants. His grid only provides 20% of its electricity from nuclear.

The point is that UT speculated only based upon an observation. He saw Limerick. He ignored the much closer Cromby. He then assumed all his electricity is nuclear by pretending those closer fossil fuel plants did not exist. And he did not first get the numbers. Again, he ignores a long list of power plants so as to claim Limerick as the primary electric source. Now we are getting to my point.

Selective reasoning. No numbers means the conclusion is based upon junk science reasoning. Then claiming only Limerick and Cromby exist in his neighborhood is another classic propaganda technique - half truths by omission of facts. These are Rush Limbaugh techniques.

Provided up top were real world numbers. About 20% of UTs electricity is from nuclear. He previously declared it was 100% because he did not obtain numbers, only made a quick observation (saw Limerick), and ignored other more relevant facts (such as the existence of Cromby and Montgomery County Recycling). By not learning the numbers up front AND by ignoring other relevant facts, UT presented personal speculation as fact.

UT is not the isolated example. Most of us did same to justify an illegal and unnecessary invasion of Iraq. History teaches that most of us will later deny we really supported that unjustified invasion. UT is only being used as an example of how so many of us think. We don't first demand irrefutable facts AND we often only listen to facts presented in a politically correct manner. Too many rationalize selectively - dominated by emotion rather than a quest for the numbers. Too often, we ignore the numbers so that eyes will not glaze over.

UT made a spectacular and erroneous assumption because he did not first learn the numbers - and other factors such as how the grid is wired. He did what so many of us do to become victims of the Rush Limbaugh types.

One trend that so often amazed me is how many call themselves computer experts and yet don't even know how electricity works. Or how many believe Listerine does something only because of television half-truths and how it feels in the mouth. We fix things by 'shotgunning' and then declare we know why the failure happened. We rationalize just as UT did to declare all his electricity as nuclear. No research. No numbers. Somehow we just know. That is what UT did when he declared his electricity as 100% nuclear and when he declared his electricity as 87% nuclear. Too often, we all do this junk science reasoning - which is why Rush Limbaugh types are so powerfully influential.

[wolf]

Originally Posted by tw

UT is not the isolated example. Most of us did same to justify an illegal and unnecessary invasion of Iraq.

How on Earth does he do that?

[glatt]

Originally Posted by tw

...Or how many believe Listerine does something only because of television half-truths and how it feels in the mouth...

Whoa! That's me. tw just described me! I always thought that because Listerine burns my mouth like Hell, it must be killing the germs in there, not just washing them away. Are you saying it doesn't kill the germs?

[xoxoxoBruce]

Except that all 358 MW from Cromby and the power from Montgomery County Recycling center must be consumed first before Richmond, Schuylkill, Delaware, Eddystone, DRMI, Eagle Point, Camden Paper, Limerick, Burlington, Croyden, US Steel, and Mercer take up UTs load. Those other fossil fuel plants that would also contribute alongside Limerick were conveniently forgotten (if distance is a criteria). So now we have a number still somewhere at 20% nuclear.

What is Montgomery County Recycling center? Are you refering to the Fairless Hills USS plant that burns the methane from Tullytown and Grows landfills?
Now I don't know how or where Limerick is tied into the grid so figuring the distance the juice travels is out. But other than Cromby which makes more than the Cellar needs, I don't see anything closer, physically, than Limmerick.

I like the interesting puffy, almost mushroom shaped clouds from the tops of the towers. I see them most days on the way to work.

Just water vapor. Non-nukes can use cooling towers also, if they don't have a lake or river to provide cooling.

[tw]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

What is Montgomery County Recycling center?

Electrically MCR connects to the grid in Plymouth Meeting. I believe it is located adjacent the Blue Route.

Cromby is maybe half way between Limerick and the Cellar. To provide electricity, Limerick would connect to The Cellar using what appears to be a single 230,000 volt transmission line that first feeds Cromby using, in part, an abandoned railroad 'right of way'.

In reality, most of Limerick's electricity directly connects to maybe four 500,000 volt transmission towers headed east for places like Hatfield, Somerville, and N Jersey. Or on two 500,000 volt transmission lines that head west and south towards Peach Bottom and Muddy Run (a lake that stores electricity by pumping water into a reservoir). 500,000 volt transmission lines are PJM's backbone. IOW electricity from Limerick is particularly fungible - shared by all in the grid. This is also why (in part) so many electric generation companies (ie Florida Power and Light) wanted to build natural gas electric generators adjacent to these 500,000 volt backbones. They too could provide power to the entire grid (not just locally) from that location. In today's wholesale electric market, that location on the grid would be more profitable. They would not need only the Cellar region for customers.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Let's be fair R. 358 MW from Cromby, of which I was thankfully unaware, and 2400 MW from Limerick... probably nets out to the Cellar's non-peak-usage sources being about 87% nuclear, 13% coal/oil/gas. I regret the error.

Don't feel too bad about Cromby.

Sulfur Dioxide

Since the early 1980s, the company’s Eddystone and Cromby coal burning units in suburban Philadelphia have been equipped with magnesium oxide scrubbers to remove sulfur dioxide from their emissions. Burning low sulfur coal with up to a 90 percent scrubber removal capacity has resulted in low sulfur dioxide emissions.

Nitrogen Oxide

Selective Non-Catalytic Reduction (SNCR) systems have been installed at Eddystone and Cromby. They are expected to reduce NOx emissions between 25 and 40 percent. Combined with the installation of low NOx burners in the mid 1990s, the total NOx reduction at the plants is projected at 70 percent.

[Happy Monkey]

That is why his influence is so disturbing. Not because his contribution is valuable, but because it isn't.

[Undertoad]

If Cromby's distance counts, and "ignoring the much closer Cromby" is part of your reasoning, then you can't use the 20% figure which completely ignores distance. Do you see that?

[tw]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

If Cromby's distance counts, and "ignoring the much closer Cromby" is part of your reasoning, then you can't use the 20% figure which completely ignores distance. Do you see that?

UT - provided were three different ways to calculate your electricity sources. The first assumed all adjacent plants first provide your electricity. Second is to assume all nearby plants provide your electricity. Third is to assume electricity is fungible - that the entire grid provides your electricity. In each case, your electricity is no where near to 100% or 87% nuclear. By now, that should have been obvious.

Using the perspective of distance, or by assuming electricity is fungible: either way, your electric sources are predominately fossil fuel. Facts provided with numbers too large and one sided to challenge if using logic.

How many times can you just ignore the numbers and ignore other adjacent (and closer) fossil fuel plants? You ignore numbers when it is convenient? Rush Limbaugh and Karl Rove love that type of reasoning. It explains why lies about weapons of mass destruction are believed and why The Lancet study of 98,000 dead Iraqis due to the American invasion is repeatedly denied (even after Schroninger's Cat spend so much time to explain it). Selective reasoning or simply ignoring inconvenient numbers? Which is it? Your electricity is not 100% or 87% generated by nuclear. At this point, the denial must be humor.

[Undertoad]

Originally Posted by tw

UT - provided were three different ways to calculate your electricity sources. The first assumed all adjacent plants first provide your electricity. Second is to assume all nearby plants provide your electricity. Third is to assume electricity is fungible - that the entire grid provides your electricity. In each case, your electricity is no where near to 100% or 87% nuclear. By now, that should have been obvious.

Ah yes, the usual fact-based TW provides me with three different ways to calculate and all are completely logical and obvious. Despite the fact that they all produce wildly different results.

The only thing they have in common is that they prove me wrong. That's a nice logical and scientific agenda, close enough for the Cellar.

[Happy Monkey]

Just think of all the natural gas that was, and still is, just burned off at the derrick because collecting it is more expensive at this point than just grabbing the oil underneath it..

[xoxoxoBruce]

A guy I used to work with told me his Grandfather had a standpipe at the back edge of the yard he would light at night. Lit up the yard with a six foot flame and drew the insects away from the house.

[Undertoad]

I was playing around with Google Earth, and traced the high-tension lines coming from Cromby. One set leads down to Barbadoes (sp?) Island near Norristown, where it links up with another plant of some sort - is this the recycling plant? - and then seems to head down the Schulykill towards the city. The other set goes across the county, links up with a much bigger set from Limerick, and winds up at a substation on North Wales Rd near Rt 73.