Why we should enforce the death penalty

[depmats]

Originally posted by Perry5


Perhaps not today,but who knows when some lawyer may decide to stick his finger up your ass and turn you inside out.

To the lawyer the words ill eagle represent nothing more than a sick bird and outragious fees.

If I keep my shit straight I won't have to deal with the bloodsuckers.

[Lady Sidhe]

Sidhe: Despite the nature of the crimes, these people aren't psychotic.

Catwoman: Can that statement possibly hold any truth?



Why is that so hard to believe? Why is it so hard to believe that people can be JUST that calculating? I don't believe that someone who commits murder for hire is insane. He knows what he's doing, and he has a good reason for doing it, as far as he's concerned.

I don't believe that a mother who drowns her children, to accomplish a specific purpose, is insane. She's just self-centered, and cares for no one other than herself.

I don't believe that an armed robber or rapist who kills the victim is insane. They also kill for a completely logical purpose: to leave no witnesses so that they will not get caught.

I don't understand why people feel the need to believe that anyone who commits a crime, especially a heinous crime, must not be sane. Sanity is not exclusive of crime, and the most dangerous of the criminals tend to be the logical, intelligent ones.



Sidhe:Evasion indicates knowledge of right and wrong, and that knowledge means that they do not want to pay the consequences, and are taking steps to prevent it.

Catwoman:Yes, assuming these people are in a sane, logical and rational frame of mind (see above).



Legal insanity, insanity as defined by law in reference to law, is: A defect or disease of mind that renders the individual incapable of knowing that what they were doing was wrong. That means that if they make attempts to evade capture, then they knew that the action was wrong, and are therefore sane.




Sidhe: How do you rehabilitate someone who cares only for his own desires, and thinks the rest of the world is there for him to use in order to fulfill those desires?

Catwoman: If this is the case (and forgive my ignorance - but I happen to think the circumstances surrounding a murder are a little more complex than this), then rehabilitation is not the most important issue. I am sure there are cases where it will never be possible to reintroduce such an individual into society. But that doesn't mean we cannot learn from them. Aileen Wuornos was interviewed by a psychologist for 15 minutes before determining that she was sane, and was subsequently sentenced to death. Our criminal research facilities are horribly inept, both here and the USA. I keep reiterating that not enough is known and we should establish reason before dictating solution.



Why don't we put more emphasis on helping the people we CAN help?
Personality disorders are not curable. That's the simple fact. One must WANT to be cured of a personality disorder, and since the engagement in the behavior satisfies something in the person with the disorder, they do not want to be "cured." Personality disorders are NOT considered insanity, under the law OR psychiatrically.

Wolf could probably tell you about those wonderful personality disorders. I'm sure she sees them more often than she'd like. And those are the more dangerous, I'd say, because they're calculating and devious in getting what they want.



Sidhe

[Lady Sidhe]

Originally posted by depmats


So quit wasting time and wack 'em sooner. The good news is that if they kill someone in prison... I know it won't be me.

*standing ovation* BRAVO!

[ladysycamore]

Originally posted by Lady Sidhe
Sidhe: Despite the nature of the crimes, these people aren't psychotic.

Catwoman: Can that statement possibly hold any truth?

Why is that so hard to believe? Why is it so hard to believe that people can be JUST that calculating? I don't believe that someone who commits murder for hire is insane. He knows what he's doing, and he has a good reason for doing it, as far as he's concerned.

Greed is a big motivater for committing crimes regarding money. Being psychotic means losing touch with reality. Those ppl certain haven't done that at all.

I don't believe that a mother who drowns her children, to accomplish a specific purpose, is insane. She's just self-centered, and cares for no one other than herself.

Well, in the case of Andrea Yates, wasn't she a paranoid schizophrenic? Susan Smith certainly was NOT insane, even though what she did would be considered something akin to insane by most people.

[wolf]

Originally posted by ladysycamore
Well, in the case of Andrea Yates, wasn't she a paranoid schizophrenic? Susan Smith certainly was NOT insane, even though what she did would be considered something akin to insane by most people.

I was going to point out the same thing ... two mothers, both of whom killed their children. Very different reasons and cases, though.

Andrea Yates ... crazy murderer. Report regarding Defense Psychiatrist Assessment

Susan Smith ... manipulative, self-centered murderer

[Lady Sidhe]

In the mother example, I was thinking of Susan Smith. Didn't Andrea Yates suffer from postpartum depression?

And thinking about her...I dunno. I think that if someone methodically chases her children down, and drowns them one by one....at the very least, if she IS psychiatrically ill, then she should be sterilized, because she could do it again.

I know that might sound harsh, but I'm just more concerned about the kids than I am about the killers. There's no reason for her to be able to kill more children because some psychiatrist says she's "cured." When I worked in the psych ward, it was a revolving door of people who were supposedly "cured." They were always brought back for medical noncompliance.


Sidhe

[Lady Sidhe]

Reader's Digest, June 2004



There is a new DNA test that can determine a person's ancestry. Standard DNA tests can determine sex, but tell nothing about a person's appearance.

While prosecutors today routinely use DNA taken from a crime scene to convict an offender, the analysis does not tell police much about whom they should be looking for in the first place. Widely used tests today only reveal a person's sex, but that's changing. Using a huge database of of genetic information from people all over the world, scientists at Penn State University devised a test that looks for "markers" on DNA that give strong clues about a person's ancestry.

The test, known as DNA Witness, can determine whether a person is most likely European, African American, Asian or Native American (people of Hispanic heritage tend to have a mix of ethnic groups.) Crime researchers in Britain are currently working on a test that they hope will detect hair color and even facial characteristics.

Scientists at the University of Ottowa Heart Institute have a method for extracting DNA from the microscopic remnants of skin left behind when a person touches an object. The test can be performed in minutes at the crime scene. The process, which is not available yet, also works for blood, hair, saliva, or even a flake of dandruff.

Researchers are also perfecting ways to identify plant DNA, which would have many uses, including the ability to trace seized shipments of illegal drugs to a given distributor.
Forensic scientists are developing methods to identify animal DNA. One in three homes in the US contains a source of criminal evidence: a cat or dog. As pet lovers know, fur clings to clothing. In one celebrated case, police on Prince Edward Island, Canada, linked white hairs on a bloody jacket found near the scene of a murder to their prime suspect--who owned a cat named Snowball.

Police in Kirkland, Washington, were frustrated. They had a suspect in the murder of a 27-year-old Bible-studies student: her neighbor, Eric H. Hayden. They also had a bed sheet with a bloody hand print. But the pattern on the fabric caused the finger- and palm prints to be unclear, making it impossible to match them to Hayden's hand. Enter Eric Berg, a forensic field supervisor with the police department in nearby Tacoma. Berg took digital photos of the prints and, using a computer program, filtered out the background "noise," producing clear prints that helped convict Hayden, who is now serving 26 years in prison.

Looking for fingerprints remains an essential part of any crime-scene investigation. However, criminals rarely leave behind pristine impressions. Berg's innovative technique, which is now available in police departments in the form of software called More Hits, enables police to read smudged or partial prints.

There is also an FBI-run database called CODIS (Combined DNA Index System), which is a network that lets Federal, State, and Local crime labs exchange and compare DNA electronically. The genetic information in question merely has to be plugged into the system. Using this system, Kansas City police were able to trace the murder ofr a 39-year-old woman (in 2000) to a paroled rapist from Arkansas named Wayne Dumond, who is now serving a life sentence for the murder.

Using computers, scientists at the Heinz School at Carnegie Mellon University in Pittsburg tracked minor and major crimes for more than a decade in two cities (Rochester, NY, and Pittsburg, PA). After running extensive statistical analyses, the scientists discovered that an uptick in minor crimes such as vandalism usuallly precedes, by about a month, more serious property crimes, such as burglary and larceny.

When the researchers road-tested their program, they were able to predict crimes with at least 80% accuracy. What's more, they could narrow down where the crime would take place to an area as small as an individual police beat--about one square mile. By the end of this year, the researchers hope to begin distributing the software to precincts across the country.
While criminals often seem to strike in a random fashion, statistical analyses of crime locations can disclose patterns. That's useful when police are hunting for serial criminals, says Texas State University criminologist Kim Rossmo, who created a concept called Geographic Profiling. Rossmo notes that criminals tend to commit crimes close to home--but not too close ("comfort zone", in profiling terminology). He has developed software that analyzes an area where linked crimes have occured, then isolates a tiny section where the crook most likely lives. That allows police to focus on specific suspects. In one case, police in Midland, Ontario, used Geographic Profiling to nab a prolific burglar. The system nearly drew a circle around the suspect's home.

Analytical scientist Peter Nunes, of the Forensic Science Center at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, part of the US Dept. of Energy, shrank a standard gas chromatographer-mass spectrometer (a bulky instrument, weighing between 200-250 lbs., used to identify organic compounds by vaporizing them and analyzing the resulting gas molecules.) However, transporting substances such as chemical weapons, explosive residues, fire accelerants, and drugs--to crime labe takes time and can be dangerous; therefore, the new and improved GC-MS has been shrunk to a a portable 75 lbs. It is already on the market and is in limited use by the Los Angeles County Sheriff' Dept.



Now that's interesting.....



Sidhe

[Lady Sidhe]

A man in the crowd was acting strangely. Then, according to an article in the New York Times, he wheeled about and shoved Edgar Rivera, father of three, onto the tracks as the No 6 train screeched into Manhattan's 51st Street Station. The victim's legs were severed.

Police arrested Julio Perez, 43, a homeless man with schizophrenia and a long history of violence. The event, which occurred on April 28, 1999 was eerily similar to another subway attack in January. In that case, Andrew Goldstein, a 29-year old with schizophrenia considered by those who knew him as gentle but weird, pushed Kendra Webdale, who dreamed of being a writer, to her death in a subway station.

The subway attacks resulted in a public outcry that ended in an "assisted outpatient treatment" measure called "Kendra's Law". The legislation authorizes judges to issue orders requiring people to take their medicine, regularly undergo psychiatric treatment, or both. Failure to comply could result in commitment for up to 72 hours. Prior to Kendra's law, a psychiatric patient had to be considered dangerous to be forcibly committed.

Recent data on its effectiveness show 75% fewer people arrested, and there was a 44% decrease in harm to others and a 45% reduction in harm to self.


This is a New York law. Unfortunately, it hasn't been adopted anywhere else that I know of.


Sidhe

[wolf]

Pennsylvania has had a similar law since 1974. I don't know all of the details of Kendra's law, though.

PA has long term involuntary outpatient commitments. If a patient is not compliant with the specified treatment (most outpatient centers consider missing three appointments as noncompliance) the case management office can file a petition for evaluation for the need to be returned to a higher level of care (inpatient, in this case). Doc evaluatest the patient, patient goes to court, court either commits the patient or the patient goes free.

[Catwoman]

Catwoman reads through new posts and sighs. Has said everything she can on the subject. Agrees with sidhe and lady that many crimes are motivated by greed/self-interest but cannot condone or even bear the thought of killing another human being. Concludes that she at least does not have what it takes to kill, be it first-hand with a knife or gun, or third-hand, by condoning the death penalty.

[Lady Sidhe]

Originally posted by wolf
Pennsylvania has had a similar law since 1974. I don't know all of the details of Kendra's law, though.

PA has long term involuntary outpatient commitments. If a patient is not compliant with the specified treatment (most outpatient centers consider missing three appointments as noncompliance) the case management office can file a petition for evaluation for the need to be returned to a higher level of care (inpatient, in this case). Doc evaluatest the patient, patient goes to court, court either commits the patient or the patient goes free.

Well, with any luck, it'll spread. Not all mentally ill patients, despite what people think, are harmless eccentrics. I see nothing wrong with forcing medication compliance on people who need it to keep from flipping out and possibly killing someone. I don't care if it's part of their delusion and they aren't doing it maliciously. It doesn't change the danger and it doesn't excuse it.

Here in Louisiana, there's nothing of the sort. It tends to go like this:

Patients are either indigent or committed by the courts, which ends up being the same thing--they get medicaid, and when it runs out, hey, they're cured! It's a MIRACLE!

And then we see them back in about two weeks for being dangerous because they refuse to take their meds....*sigh*


Sidhe

[Lady Sidhe]

Remember how I brought up trying teenagers as adults for violent crimes such as rape and murder? A&E recently aired a program entitled "Teen Thrill Killers." Here are some of the kids they interviewed.


Fact: In the last 15 years, the incidences of teens killing strangers has doubled


Jason Koskovitch, 18, and cousin Jason Vreeland lured two pizza delivery men to an abandoned house and ambushed them when they arrived, shooting them point-blank while they were in the car. Neither boy had prior records, and Koskovitch said he "always wanted to know what it felt like to kill." They celebrated afterward.

he also said "I had no remorse because I didn't know them. When I don't know them, I don't care."


"The Lords of Chaos." Derek Shields, honor student; Christopher Black, honor student; Pete Magnati, genius IQ; Kevin Foster, 19. leader of the group.

17-day crime spree that included killing animals by burning them to death, theft, vandalism, armed robbery, car theft (Foster murdered the owner of the car), arson, and firebombs.

Chris Black suggested killing a music teacher who'd threatened to turn them in. Shields protested, because he knew the teacher and liked him. Foster planned the shooting, playing on the familiarity of the instructsor, Mark Schwebes (sp), with Derek, having Derek knock on his door. The teacher was murdered on his own doorstep with a 12-gauge shotgun by Foster. Afterwards, Foster bragged about how cool it was to "see [the teacher's] face blown off." to a friend, who reported him to the police and led to the arrests. Chris, Derek, and Pete pled guilty and testified against Foster. Foster received the death penalty, Chris and Derek received life, and Pete received 37 years.


Leopold and Loeb- both had genius IQ's and both were rich.
They lured a child into their car, killed him with a chisel, and stuffed his body in a drainpipe. They had no remorse for their act.


John McNeil, Dale Stewart, and Dan Angus (leader), murdered a bicyclist, Tony Batista. They drove around looking for a target; said they wanted to "draw first blood," They killed him for sport, shot at point-blank range in Aug 2000.


"Wilding"
Tacoma, WA.: a gang of 8 kids responsible for over 15 attacks, and planned the murder of 30-year-old Eric Tabes. In addition to over 20 blows to the head, one of the 11-year-old members of the gang bragged about kneeing Tabes 28 times in the face.


Rod Matthews, age 14: One of the first juveniles to be tried as an adult. Lured 14-year-old Shawn Duillette into the woods, and beat him over the head with a baseball bat from behind. Shawn's hands were still in his pockets when he was found. Rod bragged to his friends and led them to the corpse. Rod had told others of the planned murder, and said, "I've been wanting to kill people I hate, and set fires." He said that he wanted to know what it would be like to kill someone, and that he didn't think that Shawn would be missed. He showed no remorse, and was convicted of 2nd degree murder and sentenced to 15 years.

Todd Rizzo, 18: Waterbury Conn. said he "wanted to be famous.", and would preface statements with, "one day, when I'm a serial killer..." Prior to the murder, he rented a video called Paradise Lost, a documentary about child killings. In Sept 97, 13-year-old Stan Edwards was riding by Rizzo's house on his bike. Rizzo befriended him and lured him into the back yard, where he bludgeoned the boy to death with a 3 lb sledgehammer.

He said he wanted to know what it felt like to kill someone, and "I decided I wanted to try to kill him, for no good reason." According to Rizzo's brother, Rizzo wanted to be as famous as Jeffrey Dahmer, whom he idolized.

According to quoted psychologists: "They know right from wrong, but just don't care."

And from a family member of one of the victims: "he's not a juvenile, he's a murderer; You can't be given a conscience."

That hits it on the head. You can't give someone a conscience.

One psychologist said that these kids can't see the consequences of their actions so far ahead. In other words, they know the person will die, but don't consider the effects on the families and friends involved. However, do you honestly believe that it would stop them if they DID? It doesn't stop adults, if THEY consider it at all either.

Research has shown that teenagers experience an increase in self-control and impulse control between the ages of 13-16. Research on the brains of teen thrill killers shows also that there is overactivity in the singulogyrus, which is involved in obsessive thoughts, and overactivity in the prefrontal lobe, which is involved in planning, judgement, and impulse control; personality traits include egocentrism, lack of empathy and lack of remorse and self-control.

Why is it, then, that they seem to have no problem in planning the murders in such a way as to evade capture for so long? If the impulse control is so bad, how is it that they have no problems waiting to appease those impulses until there are no witnesses?

[wolf]

Originally posted by Lady Sidhe
Research has shown that teenagers experience an increase in self-control and impulse control between the ages of 13-16. Research on the brains of teen thrill killers shows also that there is overactivity in the singulogyrus, which is involved in obsessive thoughts, and overactivity in the prefrontal lobe, which is involved in planning, judgement, and impulse control; personality traits include egocentrism, lack of empathy and lack of remorse and self-control.

All of this science fails to take into account one simple concept: There is evil in the world.

[DanaC]

From the BBC news site

Scientists have discovered that the brain's centre of reasoning is among the last areas to mature. The finding, by a team at the US National Institute of Mental Health, may help to explain why teenagers often seem to be so unreasonable.

Researchers used imaging techniques to show "higher order" brain areas do not develop fully until young adulthood.
The research is published in the journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.

The decade-long study used magnetic resonance imaging to follow the development of the brains of 13 health children every two years as they grew up.
The aim was to get a better picture of how the brain develops so that it would be easily to pin down abnormalities that occur in conditions such as schizophrenia.

The researchers found that grey matter - the working tissue of the brain's cortex - diminishes in a back-to-front wave over time.

They believe this is a key part of the maturation process, whereby unused and unneeded connections between brain cells are gradually destroyed.

They found the first areas to mature were those with the most basic functions, such as processing the senses and movement.

Next came areas, such as the parietal lobes, involved in spatial orientation and language.

Last to mature were areas such as the prefrontal cortex with more advanced functions such as integrating information from the senses and reasoning.

The sequence of maturation seen by the researchers in the developing brain roughly parallels the evolution of the brain from lower order mammals to the highly complex organ that is found in man.

For instance, the prefrontal cortex emerged late in evolution and is among the last to mature.

Researcher Dr Judith Rapoport told BBC News Online: "Maturation starts with more basic facilities such as vision and hearing and then goes on to the ability to integrate and organise many inputs, to weigh consequences of behaviours and to relate to others.

"It is a smart sequence in terms of evolution and individual development."
It has long been thought that the brain produces too much grey matter during the first 18 months of life, and that this is followed by a steady decline as unused circuitry is discarded.

Several years ago the NIMH team discovered a second wave of grey matter over-production just prior to puberty, followed by a second bout of "use-it-or-lose-it" pruning during the teen years.

In a previous study, the same team also found that teenagers who became psychotic prior to puberty lost four times the normal amount of grey matter in their frontal lobes.

This, they argued, suggested that childhood onset schizophrenia may be due to an exaggeration of the normal maturation process, possibly leading to the destruction of potentially useful brain circuits.

By contrast, autism has been associated with an increase, rather than the normal decrease, in grey matter.

This is why children shouldnt be held accountable in the same way adults are. Just because they know right from wrong doesnt mean they understand that in the same way we do. Their cortex is not fully formed until they reach the age of 16/17. They do not have the same ability to conceptualise that we have as adults.

[elSicomoro]

I was just listening to coverage of the Terry Nichols state trial in Oklahoma. The state of Oklahoma spent $5 million to try Nichols in state court, and there's no guarantee that he'll be given the death penalty.

I have no stake in this at all, but spending $5 million to try and give a guy the death penalty when he's already in prison for life seems like a waste of money to me.