Global warming?

[SamIam]

Ya know, I have this sneaking suspicion that we are not going to find any common ground on this one - well maybe with Bruce, but everyone else is pretty polarized. We've has 346 posts so far, and MY mind hasn't been changed. Just saying.

OK proceed as before and you tell 'em Redux!

Originally Posted by SamIam

Ya know, I have this sneaking suspicion that we are not going to find any common ground on this one - well maybe with Bruce, but everyone else is pretty polarized. We've has 346 posts so far, and MY mind hasn't been changed. Just saying.

You got that right. There are strongly held beliefs on both sides.

OK proceed as before and you tell 'em Redux!

But I'm getting a head ache

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by SamIam

Ya know, I have this sneaking suspicion that we are not going to find any common ground on this one - well maybe with Bruce... snip

Yup, I'm a commoner.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Redux

SO what's new.....conservative and libertarian groups (AEI, CEI...) dont like the idea of government intervention, even in protecting the environment and encouraging and stimulating the development of alternative energy.

Bull shit.

I'm not one who believes CO2 emissions cause global warming...I do believe that anthropogenic emissions of CO2 (automobiles, power plants, etc) may contribute to global warming and certainly do contribute to environmental degradation...and being the second largest contributor, we should reduce those emissions.

Yea, China and India are all over that.

IMO, it is much like the screaming of doomsday scenarios by libertarians and industry groups back in the 70s when the series of comprehensive new environmental laws were enacted...clear air act, clear water act, safe drinking water act, hazardous waste disposal act, toxic substances control act.

"All this government intervention and regulation will cost the consumers $millions...it will make the US less competitive....blah blah blah"

In fact, the reverse happened....those environmental laws stimulated innovation with no pain to the consumers and made the US the leader in environmental management initiatives, with US companies exporting those innovations all over the world...and doing a pretty damned good job of cleaning up the environment at the same time.

We are not talking about cleaning up a toxic environment in that sense.

Bull shit.

RIght.

AEI's proposed solution is to bcome "more resilient" to climate change (under AEI health care reform, does that mean free artificial lungs for those with breathing disorders?) AND to fully privatize the infrastructure (power plants, water plants, roads,....) most impacted.

CEI has opposed all government regulation in this area and has declared that higher CAFE standards for autos are more likely to kill you than provide more energy efficient autos.

[TheMercenary]

Still BS. You made a broad sweeping statement and it is false. If you want to narrow it down to those two organizations as your example I agree with you.

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

Still BS. You made a broad sweeping statement and it is false. If you want to narrow it down to those two organizations as your example I agree with you.

I could add the CATO Institute, the Heartland Institute (it should be called the Exxon Institute), the Hoover Institute....In fact, I cant name one libertarian-type organization that supports any government role; there may be a few more accepting conservative organizations, but I dont know of any off the top of my head. Perhaps you do.

But thank you for agreeing about AEI and CEI.

[TheMercenary]

Institutes generally don't represent industry. You can find a mirid of opinions from their subject matter experts but I am certain we could find some pretty inflamatory statements from any organization you didn't agree with.

[SamIam]

This just in:

You would have to go back at least 15 million years to find carbon dioxide levels on Earth as high as they are today, a UCLA scientist and colleagues report Oct. 8 in the online edition of the journal Science.

"The last time carbon dioxide levels were apparently as high as they are today — and were sustained at those levels — global temperatures were 5 to 10 degrees Fahrenheit higher than they are today, the sea level was approximately 75 to 120 feet higher than today, there was no permanent sea ice cap in the Arctic and very little ice on Antarctica and Greenland," said the paper's lead author, Aradhna Tripati, a UCLA assistant professor in the department of Earth and space sciences and the department of atmospheric and oceanic sciences.

"Carbon dioxide is a potent greenhouse gas, and geological observations that we now have for the last 20 million years lend strong support to the idea that carbon dioxide is an important agent for driving climate change throughout Earth's history," she said.

http://www.climate.ucla.edu/news/art...?parentid=4676



The research data continues to build up, it is good science, carefully peer reviewed, and it makes absolute sense to anybody who cares to read it. I feel like I am trying to discuss evolution with a fundamentalist. Its not global warming, its intelligent design.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Were the temperatures and sea level caused by the CO2, or vice versa?

[Undertoad]

Reading the story, the researcher is clinically careful not to draw any conclusion on that question.

[SamIam]

Interesting question, Bruce. The paper does not address that. However, current carbon isotope studies show that the CO2 increase we are experiencing today is because of human induced carbon emissions. Put that together with the close correlation of CO2 levels and temperature and sea level increases, and we have a major cause for concern.

[SamIam]

Also, from this link:
http://www.koshland-science-museum.o...storical03.jsp

[TheMercenary]

One really good global disaster should put things back in balance. I guess we really need to get India and China to the table so the world doesn't end.

[Undertoad]

Sam, that graph appears to be bullshit. Wikipedia has a comparison chart of "10 different published reconstructions of mean temperature changes during the last 1000 years."