Those Bad Ol' Iraqis?

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Then why is there so much hatred between the Sunnis and shias. And both of them with the Kurds. Since Iraqi is a tag that came with the cobbling together Iraq, of three enemies, by outside forces, there's really no grounds for national heritage or pride. Make a democracy implausible.

Iraq was more secular than the countries around it, which isn't saying much.

I think there wasn't much violence because it was suppressed under the rule of Saddam.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by rkzenrage

There is a long history of social division between the two, encouraged and made far worse by Saddam. It is thought of, by them, more as a racial thing than religious. They are all Muslim.

But that's the rub, Muslims come in a variety of flavors like Christians do.
Like the brothers that always beat the hell out of each other but will stand shoulder to shoulder against all outsiders.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

Iraq was more secular than the countries around it, which isn't saying much.

I think there wasn't much violence because it was suppressed under the rule of Saddam.

I think you're right at the moment. There have been times in the recent past that Iran, Lebanon, even Saudi Arabia were more secular than presently. But this war has caused the militants to gain influence.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Sundae Girl

Well, I only meant to compare Iraqis to Christian fundamentals... May have missed the mark.

I don't think you're far off. Just stopping everything, every few hours, to pray in an open and highly visible manner. In a way that makes anyone not participating highly visible also, is a constant reminder that their faith is actively intertwined with everyday life. More so than a once a week routine. There are Christians the go to church daily, but they don't stop traffic to do so.

Try getting out of my old house to go to lunch on Wed or Sun.

[Flint]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

...but they don't stop traffic to do so...

"They" sure as hell do, in my town. "They" over-developed their massive plot of land with a massive "recreation center" (bowling alley? movie theatre? shouldn't this money go to mission work?) and now there is no room left for adequate parking.

The solution? Parking across the street at a shopping center, and stopping traffic along a major road so they can mosey across at a leisurely pace, with uniformed police officers (whom I assume are off duty) acting as crossguards.

I can't wait to start my Satan Worship club and have uniformed police officers stop traffic for me and my buddies because we built a go-cart track on top of our parking lot. We'll also have no problem blocking your driveway, and blasting mega-decibel bells into your home at all hours.

Exactly... separation of church and state. Cops have no place stopping traffic so church folks can park easier.
Crazy.

[Aliantha]

Cops have no reason to stop traffic for church folk full stop. They're going to heaven anyway right?

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Flint

snip~The solution? Parking across the street at a shopping center, and stopping traffic along a major road so they can mosey across at a leisurely pace, with uniformed police officers (whom I assume are off duty) acting as crossguards.

I can't wait to start my Satan Worship club and have uniformed police officers stop traffic for me and my buddies because we built a go-cart track on top of our parking lot. We'll also have no problem blocking your driveway, and blasting mega-decibel bells into your home at all hours.

Aha, so that's the root of your discontent. They're runnin' down the hood.

You can get off duty uniformed cops to direct traffic any time you can afford it. Around here the Pumpkin Patch does that around Halloween.

Originally Posted by rkzenrage

Exactly... separation of church and state. Cops have no place stopping traffic so church folks can park easier. Crazy.

Don't be silly, your rabidity? rabidness?, is clouding your judgment, now. The police should be on top of any traffic problem, especially when pedestrians are at risk.

It is not a traffic problem, there are not so many of them that they cannot wait for the normal flow of traffic to allow them to enter at their own pace.
It is our tax dollars being used inappropriately. You don't see cops being used at the grocery store on Saturday morning do you? No. Everyone waits and is patient like they should be.

[Ibby]

The police, especially off-duty, are free - maybe even bound - to direct traffic to help people. If there were massive, regular crowds of shoppers parking at the church (or anywhere else, for that matter) and walking across busy streets to shop at the mall, someone should be on top of that too. Don't want granma gettin' run over on the way to church any more than on the way to Bed, Bath & Beyond.

The worst traffic in my town/county are around shopping areas on the weekend.
The only place you will ever see a cop in in front of a church, in uniform with their car, city and sheriff.

[bluesdave]

We have a problem down here because of "political correctness". I don't know if you guys have the same problem in the US, but here the police have to be very careful that they do not offend a Muslim. On the other hand they have to track and infiltrate the Muslim gangs (mostly ex Lebanese), who are into drug trafficking, intimidation, and straight out murder. This causes all of us (non Muslims) to be very suspicious of anyone Muslim, or of Middle Eastern "appearance", which is certainly not fair, but what do you do? These gangs are killing people (usually shooting or knifing), almost on a weekly basis.

Iraq is a mess because we (the "Allies"/Western coalition), made it so by invading in 2003, but does that mean that we should sit back and accept our troops being butchered by Middle Eastern and South Asian terrorists? It is not an easy situation to handle. By the time Obama gets in in 2008, it will be too late to "fix" the problem.

I don't know the answers, and apparently neither do our politicians.

Of course we should not sit back... we should get them the hell out of there.

[bluesdave]

Originally Posted by rkzenrage

Of course we should not sit back... we should get them the hell out of there.

As George W and our John Howard keep saying, it is not that simple. The whole Middle East would collapse into chaos (yes, more so than it already is), and it would probably spread into South Asia (Afghanistan would become even more of a disaster than it already is, and even Pakistan would be under threat).

I fully support our troops, and I also wish that they could be withdrawn, but the evidence and history, shows that this would be a disaster. Iraq is not Vietnam. We cannot just let go, and things will sort themselves out. I just wish that someone in authority had some answers. Vietnam showed us that supporting a government that does not have the support of the people, is a road to failure, but pulling out of Iraq and Afghanistan will create an explosion of violence. It is a real dilemma.