$27 million anti-evolution museum to open soon

[DanaC]

I do quite a lot of polling in the approach to elections. One thing I have noticed is, that people are less unhappy at talking about their electoral preferences than they used to be (used to get a lot of people saying "It's a secret ballot!" and refusing to answer any questions) people seem more used to telephone polling generally over the last 10 years or so. In the last two years I have noticed a distinct difference in how likely people are to tell you they are voting for the BNP, often without a corresponding change in outcomes. So, where before very few people would admit to voting BNP unless they were hardcore neo-nazis, now quite average people will say they support the BNP. ........sorry....thread drift, my bad :P

[Sundae]

Originally Posted by DanaC

So, where before very few people would admit to voting BNP unless they were hardcore neo-nazis, now quite average people will say they support the BNP.

That is so weird. Here I am secure in my multi-ethnic bubble, believing that Britain is a tolerant place. You know I have met people who want to abolish the welfare state, but I've never met a card carrying racist. Horrible to think they are out there and becoming more vocal

[elSicomoro]

"These days you can't tell whose in cahoots 'cause now the KKK wears three-piece suits..."

[DanaC]

Syc, that has a lot of resonance.

@ SG, Many of them wouldn't consider themselves racist; plenty of them aren't really racists. The BNP have done a fair to middling job of convincing people that they aren't really about race......they even tried to recruit a Sikh friend of mine. It's only when someone films them secretly at a rally Zeik Heiling about the place and talking about ridding the country of the 'ethnic cockroaches' who are polluting the white race that people are reminded who they really are.

[elSicomoro]

Originally Posted by DanaC

Syc, that has a lot of resonance.

It's from a Public Enemy song from 1991...it was around the time that David Duke became well-known. A great line...and it applies to many extremist groups these days.

They discuss some poll results in there where Americans state that ... plus give you some ideas about how people feel about us. Notice how Atheists are "represented" on her panel.

It is illegal for us to hold public office in over seventeen states.

http://atheism.about.com/od/atheistb...heitsHated.htm
University of Minnesota Study on American Attitudes Towards Atheists & Atheism
From Austin Cline,
Your Guide to Agnosticism / Atheism.
FREE Newsletter. Sign Up Now!
Research Finds that Atheists are Most Despised, Most Distrusted Minority
Every single study that has ever looked at the issue has revealed massive amounts of bigotry and prejudice against atheists in America. The most recent data shows that atheists are more distrusted and despised than any other minority and that an atheist is the least likely person that Americans would vote for in a presidential election. It's not just that atheists are hated, though, but also that atheists seem to represent everything about modernity which Americans dislike or fear.
The most recent study was conducted by the University of Minnesota, which found that atheists ranked lower than "Muslims, recent immigrants, gays and lesbians and other minority groups in 'sharing their vision of American society.' Atheists are also the minority group most Americans are least willing to allow their children to marry." The results from two of the most important questions were:
This group does not at all agree with my vision of American society...
Atheist: 39.6%
Muslims: 26.3%
Homosexuals: 22.6%
Hispanics: 20%
Conservative Christians: 13.5%
Recent Immigrants: 12.5%
Jews: 7.6%

I would disapprove if my child wanted to marry a member of this group....
Atheist: 47.6%
Muslim: 33.5%
African-American 27.2%
Asian-Americans: 18.5%
Hispanics: 18.5%
Jews: 11.8%
Conservative Christians: 6.9%
Whites: 2.3%

Lead researcher Penny Edgell said that she was surprised by this: "We thought that in the wake of 9/11, people would target Muslims. Frankly, we expected atheists to be a throwaway group." Nevertheless, the numbers are so extreme that she was led to conclude that they are "a glaring exception to the rule of increasing tolerance over the last 30 years." It's not that bigotry and discrimination against Muslims is appropriate, but at least it's not hard to understand where such attitudes would come from.
Every group except atheists is being shown much greater tolerance and acceptance than 30 years ago. "Our analysis shows that attitudes about atheists have not followed the same historical pattern as that for previously marginalized religious groups. It is possible that the increasing tolerance for religious diversity may have heightened awareness of religion itself as the basis for solidarity in American life and sharpened the boundary between believers and nonbelievers in our collective imagination."
Some respondents associated atheism with illegal behavior, like drug use and prostitution: "that is, with immoral people who threaten respectable community from the lower end of the social hierarchy." Others saw atheists as "rampant materialists and cultural elitists" who "threaten common values from above -- the ostentatiously wealthy who make a lifestyle out of consumption or the cultural elites who think they know better than everyone else."
Given the relatively low number of atheists in America, and the even lower number who are public about their atheism, Americans can't have come to their beliefs about atheists through personal experience and hard evidence about what atheists are really like. Furthermore, dislike of atheists doesn’t correlate very highly with dislike of gays, immigrants, or Muslims. This means that dislike of atheists isn't simply part of a larger dislike of people who are "different."
Why are atheists being singled out for special hatred and distrust? "What matters for public acceptance of atheists - and figures strongly into private acceptance as well - are beliefs about the appropriate relationship between church and state and about religion's role in underpinning society's moral order, as measured by our item on whether society's standards of right and wrong should be based on God's laws." It's curious that atheists would be singled out for special hatred on the basis of church/state separation which religious theists, including Christians, are usually on the forefront of fighting to preserve separation. It's rare to find a case filed by or supported by atheists which is not also supported by theists and Christians. In fact, I can't think of any off hand.
Although people may say that they consider atheists inferior because atheists don't believe that civil law should be defined according to some group's conception of what their god wants, I don't think that's the whole story. There are too many religious theists who also want civil law to be secular rather than religious. Instead, I think that a much better case can be made for the idea that atheists are being scapegoated the same way that Catholics and Jews once were: they are treated as social outsiders who create "moral and social disorder."
Atheists can't both be lower-class drug users or prostitutes and upper-class elitists and materialists. Instead, atheists are being saddled with the "sins" of American society generally. They are "a symbolic figure" that represent religious theists' "fears about ... trends in American life." Some of those fears involve "lower class" crimes like drug use; other fears involve "upper class" crimes like greed and elitism. Atheists are thus a "symbolic representation of one who rejects the basis for moral solidarity and cultural membership in American society altogether."
That's obviously not going to change, because as long as atheists remain atheists, then won't be theists and they won't be Christians. This means that they won't agree that any gods, much less the Christian god, can serve as the basis for moral solidarity or cultural membership in American society. Of course, neither can adherents of many other religions who either don't believe in gods or who don't believe in the Christian god. As America becomes more religiously pluralist, America is going to have to change and find something else to serve as the basis for moral solidarity and cultural membership. Atheists should work to ensure that this is as secular as possible.

[TheMercenary]

The thing they don't tell you is that they only asked 30 people the questions and then made this broad sweeping conclusion about Americans:

"The most recent data shows that atheists are more distrusted and despised than any other minority and that an atheist is the least likely person that Americans would vote for in a presidential election. It's not just that atheists are hated, though, but also that atheists seem to represent everything about modernity which Americans dislike or fear."

I wonder if they were asking exchange students and just didn't know it?

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

The thing they don't tell you is that they only asked 30 people the questions and then made this broad sweeping conclusion about Americans:

"The most recent data shows that atheists are more distrusted and despised than any other minority and that an atheist is the least likely person that Americans would vote for in a presidential election. It's not just that atheists are hated, though, but also that atheists seem to represent everything about modernity which Americans dislike or fear."

I wonder if they were asking exchange students and just didn't know it?

& the seventeen states in which it is illegal for an atheist to hold public office?
How do you speculate that away?
Nice how you ignored the films as well.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by rkzenrage

& the seventeen states in which it is illegal for an atheist to hold public office?
How do you speculate that away?
Nice how you ignored the films as well.

Dude, I just opened them. See my PM reply before you jump down my neck and think that I am just another asshole.

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

Dude, I just opened them. See my PM reply before you jump down my neck and think that I am just another asshole.

Different videos, but thanks for the heads-up.

[wolf]

Originally Posted by rkzenrage

& the seventeen states in which it is illegal for an atheist to hold public office?
How do you speculate that away?

You've said that a lot.

Citation of the actual statutes of the states involved, please.

Originally Posted by wolf

You've said that a lot.

Citation of the actual statutes of the states involved, please.

Here, I will hold your hand...

ALABAMA

We, the people of the State of Alabama, in order to establish justice, insure domestic tranquillity, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, invoking the favor and guidance of Almighty God, do ordain and establish the following Constitution and form of government for the State of Alabama


ALASKA

We the people of Alaska, grateful to God and to those who founded our nation and pioneered this great land, in order to secure and transmit to succeeding generations our heritage of political, civil, and religious liberty within the Union of States, do ordain and establish this constitution for the State of Alaska.


ARIZONA

We, the people of the State of Arizona, grateful to Almighty God for our liberties, do ordain this Constitution.


ARKANSAS

We, the people of the State of Arkansas, grateful to Almighty God for the privilege of choosing our own form of government, for our civil and religious liberty, and desiring to perpetuate its blessings and secure the same to our selves and posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution.


CALIFORNIA

We, the People of the State of California, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, in order to secure and perpetuate its blessings, do establish this Constitution.


COLORADO

We, the people of Colorado, with profound reverence for the Supreme Ruler of the Universe, in order to form a more independent and perfect government; establish justice; insure tranquillity; provide for the common defense; promote the general welfare and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this constitution for the "State of Colorado".


CONNECTICUT

The People of Connecticut acknowledging with gratitude, the good providence of God, in having permitted them to enjoy a free government; do, in order more effectually to define, secure, and perpetuate the liberties, rights and privileges which they have derived from their ancestors; hereby, after a careful consideration and revision, ordain and establish the following constitution and form of civil government.


DELAWARE

Through Divine goodness, all men have by nature the rights of worshiping and serving their Creator according to the dictates of their consciences, of enjoying and defending life and liberty, of acquiring and protecting reputation and property, and in general of obtaining objects suitable to their condition, without injury by one to another; and as these rights are essential to their welfare, for due exercise thereof, power is inherent in them; and therefore all just authority in the institutions of political society is derived from the people, and established with their consent, to advance their happiness; and they may for this end, as circumstances require, from time to time, alter their Constitution of government.


FLORIDA

We, the people of the State of Florida, being grateful to Almighty God for our constitutional liberty, in order to secure its benefits, perfect our government, insure domestic tranquility, maintain public order, and guarantee equal civil and political rights to all, do ordain and establish this constitution.


GEORGIA

To perpetuate the principles of free government, insure justice to all, preserve peace, promote the interest and happiness of the citizen and of the family, and transmit to posterity the enjoyment of liberty, we the people of Georgia, relying upon the protection and guidance of Almighty God, do ordain and establish this Constitution.


HAWAII

We, the people of Hawaii, grateful for Divine Guidance, and mindful of our Hawaiian heritage and uniqueness as an island State, dedicate our efforts to fulfill the philosophy decreed by the Hawaii State motto, "Ua mau ke ea o ka aina i ka pono."

(The translation of the motto is “The life of the land is perpetuated in righteousness.”)


IDAHO

We, the people of the state of Idaho, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, to secure its blessings and promote our common welfare do establish this Constitution.


ILLINOIS

We, the People of the State of Illinois - grateful to Almighty God for the civil, political and religious liberty which He has permitted us to enjoy and seeking His blessing upon our endeavors - in order to provide for the health, safety and welfare of the people; maintain a representative and orderly government; eliminate poverty and inequality; assure legal, social and economic justice; provide opportunity for the fullest development of the individual; insure domestic tranquility; provide for the common defense; and secure the blessings of freedom and liberty to ourselves and our posterity - do ordain and establish this Constitution for the State of Illinois.


INDIANA

TO THE END, that justice be established, public order maintained, and liberty perpetuated; WE, the People of the State of Indiana, grateful to ALMIGHTY GOD for the free exercise of the right to choose our own form of government, do ordain this Constitution.


IOWA

WE THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF IOWA, grateful to the Supreme Being for the blessings hitherto enjoyed, and feeling our dependence on Him for a continuation of those blessings, do ordain and establish a free and independent government, by the name of the State of Iowa, the boundaries whereof shall be as follows:


KANSAS

We, the people of Kansas, grateful to Almighty God for our civil and religious privileges, in order to insure the full enjoyment of our rights as American citizens, do ordain and establish this constitution of the state of Kansas, with the following boundaries, to wit: Beginning at a point on the western boundary of the state of Missouri, where the thirty-seventh parallel of north latitude crosses the same; thence running west on said parallel to the twenty-fifth meridian of longitude west from Washington; thence north on said meridian to the fortieth parallel of north latitude; thence east on said parallel to the western boundary of the state of Missouri; thence south with the western boundary of said state to the place of beginning.


KENTUCKY

We, the people of the Commonwealth of Kentucky, grateful to Almighty God for the civil, political and religious liberties we enjoy, and invoking the continuance of these blessings, do ordain and establish this Constitution.


LOUISIANA

We, the people of Louisiana, grateful to Almighty God for the civil, political, economic, and religious liberties we enjoy, and desiring to protect individual rights to life, liberty, and property; afford opportunity for the fullest development of the individual; assure equality of rights; promote the health, safety, education, and welfare of the people; maintain a representative and orderly government; ensure domestic tranquility; provide for the common defense; and secure the blessings of freedom and justice to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this constitution.


MAINE

We the people of Maine, in order to establish justice, insure tranquility, provide for our mutual defense, promote our common welfare, and secure to ourselves and our posterity the blessings of liberty, acknowledging with grateful hearts the goodness of the Sovereign Ruler of the Universe in affording us an opportunity, so favorable to the design; and, imploring God's aid and direction in its accomplishment, do agree to form ourselves into a free and independent State, by the style and title of the State of Maine and do ordain and establish the following Constitution for the government of the same.


MARYLAND

We, the People of the State of Maryland, grateful to Almighty God for our civil and religious liberty, and taking into our serious consideration the best means of establishing a good Constitution in this State for the sure foundation and more permanent security thereof, declare:


MASSACHUSETTES

We, therefore, the people of Massachusetts, acknowledging, with grateful hearts, the goodness of the great Legislator of the universe, in affording us, in the course of His providence, an opportunity, deliberately and peaceably, without fraud, violence or surprise, of entering into an original, explicit, and solemn compact with each other; and of forming a new constitution of civil government, for ourselves and posterity; and devoutly imploring His direction in so interesting a design, do agree upon, ordain and establish the following Declaration of Rights, and Frame of Government, as the Constitution of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts.


MICHIGAN

We, the people of the State of Michigan, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of freedom, and earnestly desiring to secure these blessings undiminished to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this constitution.


MINNESOTA

We, the people of the state of Minnesota, grateful to God for our civil and religious liberty, and desiring to perpetuate its blessings and secure the same to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution


MISSISSIPPI

We, the people of Mississippi in convention assembled, grateful to Almighty God, and invoking his blessing on our work, do ordain and establish this constitution.


MISSOURI

We the people of Missouri, with profound reverence for the Supreme Ruler of the Universe, and grateful for His goodness, do establish this constitution for the better government of the state.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by rkzenrage

Here, I will hold your hand...

You're holding nothing but your dick. I don't see one statute backing your claim, not one.

The Federal Constitution does not say there shall be a separation of Church and State. That's a modern shorthand for the actual wording which you're taking literally.

The language of all those citations is exactly what I'd expect from religious men in that era. And they were you know, they were religious men because the Federal Constitution guaranteed they could be, any religion they wanted and the Feds couldn't tell them they weren't the right religion or deny them office because of it. And most certainly didn't deny them office for lack of it, although if it was elected office, they probably couldn't get the votes.

That said, I had heard Delaware required belief in God to hold State office, but I don't know for sure.

[Sundae]

Move to the UK.
We don't have any problem with atheists. Phew - something I can say positively about my country!

(Except that you'll probably find most of continental Europe just the same)

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Sundae Girl

Move to the UK.
We don't have any problem with atheists. Phew - something I can say positively about my country!

(Except that you'll probably find most of continental Europe just the same)

I love the UK, well except for your taxes.... and your food.