Bad Astronomy, Penn and Teller, etc.

[HungLikeJesus]

Look! A missile! Blowing up an airplane!

[Flint]

I can't figure out what this thread was supposed to be about. The best theory I can come up with: masterful shit-stirring wrapped in an indecipherable layer of obfuscation.

[HungLikeJesus]

If that were the case I would have put it in a different forum.

It's about Phil Plait's Bad Astronomy blog, which is now on the Discover magazine site.

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/

I suppose it could also be about scientific skepticism and related topics.

[Flint]

Is Phil Plait Penn and Teller?

[HungLikeJesus]

There was an article about the Penn and Teller video on the blog yesterday. Also, Penn and Teller sometimes address issues of interest to scientific skeptics.

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

After you watch it, tell me once again that you believe she was injured by a vaccine and had dystonia.

It's entirely possible it was not dystonia. I already noted that back when you did your "this is huge! this means we are in agreement! *kisses*" post, which I'm too busy to go back and find. You are very singly focused on individual cases and individual components like thimerosal. I am concerned with larger trends that the medical community is refusing to acknowledge. If you want to go one-for-one on individual cases, a vaccine injury board in the UK just this past weekend ruled that the MMR shot did in fact cause the plaintiff's "encephalopathic seizures," but made absolutely sure to note that they still did not equate the seizures with the diagnosis of autism he's had from the beginning, despite the fact that 30% of children with autism have visible, grand mal seizures, nevermind the additional number who have absence and partial seizures.

[Flint]

Originally Posted by HungLikeJesus

There was an article about the Penn and Teller video on the blog yesterday. Also, Penn and Teller sometimes address issues of interest to scientific skeptics.

Okay, I'm with you so far. Now... astronomy, vaccines, and missles exploding airplanes. I'm not seeing the connection...? . . . Oh, by the way, do you read Michael Shermer, "The Skeptic" in Scientific American?

[HungLikeJesus]

Originally Posted by Flint

Okay, I'm with you so far. Now... astronomy, vaccines, and missles exploding airplanes. I'm not seeing the connection...?

It's all science.

Oh, by the way, do you read Michael Shermer, "The Skeptic" in Scientific American?

No, I don't/haven't. Is it interesting?

[Undertoad]

Well this is how the problem moves. When Thimerosal is suggested as a problem, it's a disaster; when it's devalued, there are problems with the studies; when it's shown to be irrelevant, it's an "individual component".

Why must the argument move so? What does that say about the argument?

*kisses* (11/1/09)

Two months later, Desiree was "outed" in the final video.

She is an individual case. Yup. That's what she was when you first posted her first video as a scary case of vaccine injury... and I watched it, and I thought to myself, "BULLSHIT, THIS RINGS FALSE TO ME".

And that's why I followed it so closely; and for the next few months we went over her and over her, until your last word on Desiree was (11/21/09):

My life experiences indicate to me that her experience is a credible one. Yours indicates to you that it is not. But you must admit that you do not have experiences to indicate that hers is false--you don't know anyone with dystonia who has been unable to improve with these treatments. You simply lack any corroborating experiences.

You can see why I pursued it so hard. You can see why I had to bring it back, after all this time. You said I lack corroborating life experiences. I say that corroborating life experiences are not what is needed to fuel the bullshit detector.

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

When Thimerosal is suggested as a problem, it's a disaster;

Not by me. Not ever by me. I have repeatedly told you that thimerosal is not my main concern, since as you say, it was removed from most childhood vaccines. It's repeatedly been my contention that the inability to properly metabolize and process heavy metals is a symptom of autism, thus mercury toxicity merely exacerbates the damage, it does not cause the syndrome.

Originally Posted by Undertoad

You can see why I pursued it so hard. You can see why I had to bring it back, after all this time.

Honestly, I can't. But it's fine--you detected her bullshit sooner and faster than I did. Congratulations. It's not about some stupid cheerleader to me, or the credibility of one's bullshit detector. It's about my fucking daughter, who I openly contend developed her autistic symptoms as a direct result of her MMR vaccine. So perhaps you can see why I pursue it so hard.

[Flint]

Originally Posted by HungLikeJesus

No, I don't/haven't. Is it interesting?

Yes. It's all kinds of science-y and stuff. When I read it, I'm usually all like, "whoah."

[Undertoad]

It's about my fucking daughter

In your thread it is, but in this one, it's about all of them.

[Clodfobble]

Oh? I thought it was about Desiree Jennings again...


Whatever, fuck it. I don't know why I thought I was ready for this; I'm not. In my defense, if I'd realized you were still waiting with 6-month-old "unfinished business," I surely would have known better. I only jumped in to refute the idiocy of the Penn & Teller demonstration, which HungLikeJesus took as such de facto truth he couldn't even understand why someone would take offense at it. I stand by everything I've said about it.

When you insist that vaccines don't have any connection to autism, you call me a liar. It's as plain as that. It's my problem that I can't just be cool with that, and I guess I'll have to work harder at it.

[Undertoad]

Somehow I missed this reply, sorry.

I'm sorry anyway. To say I am calling you a liar is exactly what this thing has not been about. I enjoy this thing because we are both intelligent people with an honest disagreement. You have worked on the problem in detail, so you are not a pushover. I push and you push back. I like that here. But if you don't like it then I won't like it, so that is that.

Hey at least once I have made a good point and it has helped your situation. I thought there was good value there.

I pushed you cause I loved you guys
I didn't realize
That you weren't having fun
-- Ben Folds, "My Philosophy"

[HungLikeJesus]

From yesterday's Bad Astronomy:

Yes, the wow factor is high with this one! And the thing is, what you see is what you get: it’s a laser shooting out of an observatory straight up into the heart of our galaxy!

The observatory is of the European Southern flavor, in Chile. It houses the Very Large Telescope, which has a very nice little tool it can use: a laser guide star. The laser shoots up into the sky and excites atoms in the upper atmosphere, causing them to glow. That makes an artificial and very bright star in the sky! The telescope can then use that star to track the distortions in the atmosphere and compensate for them, allowing the images it makes to be incredibly clear and sharp.

There's a much larger version of the image linked at the BA site. I've set it as my wallpaper at work.