06/03/03: Is being gay a choice?

[99 44/100% pure]

Originally posted by juju
. . . They feel inadequate if they're not married, so they start bugging the crap out of the closet guy . . .

Well, isn't that how their whole mess got started?

[juju]

Whoops. :) That really wasn't intentional.

[MaggieL]

Originally posted by Tobiasly

She may believe his act, but he sure as hell isn't fooling himself.

You think not? Looks to me like he's "successfully" fooling himself...if "success" is defined as ongoing denial. You'd be amazed how powerful denial about this kind of stuff can be; if you're sufficiently terrified by the truth.

Been there, done that, about a slightly different issue, admittedly, but the mechanism is familiar. I was lucky enough to recover from it before killing myself. Not everybody is. Some do kill themselves, others just finish out their lives closeted and miserable.

But to work from the theory that "he's just not trying hard enough" ranks pretty high on my cruelometer, which is why this "it's a choice, a lifestyle" approach is so bogus.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Maggie, so you feel if he has any doubts surface about being hetro he just feels he's failing his religion and must work harder rather than face reality?

[Tobiasly]

Originally posted by MaggieL
You think not? Looks to me like he's "successfully" fooling himself...if "success" is defined as ongoing denial.

I was defining success as fooling himself into believing he enjoys sex with women, which he never will accomplish.

[a case study]

I have been reading this, but I think most of you are a bunch of windbags typing to hear yourself talk. This is MY LIFE you're tinkering around with. Just because I haven't lived it like YOUR life...all of you, escaping your realities by hanging around with other windbags...doesn't mean my life choices are wrong.

He thinks about ME, not about some guy. He has made choices, choices that required the courage to walk away from all the stuff that was wrong in his life and come into what he considered right, whether or not you windbags think it is.

When someone gets cancer, do you people immediately condemn him to death? No -- at least I hope not. You tell him to fight on, to face the problems, go head on, and do battle. And yet here is something this man considers to be that bad, that troubling, and you just tell him to give up.

We have fought a long hard struggle, and we love each other very much. D is happy: happier than he ever was out in the gay lifestyle. He has not acclimated to having sex with a woman, but he spent longer than most making other choices. There is as much evidence to support the fact that people can live straight as gay, but you all ignore that. I suppose when a child is born bad--and they all are born bad -- you don't bother to help them correct it, you just let him do what he wants to do.

All my tirading to say this: This is my life you're tinkering around with here. How about accepting the fact that just because we don't live YOUR way doesn't mean our way isn't okay?

Windbags.

J

Denial, the most predictable of human emotions.

It's not a disease, you fucking retard.

[a case study]

Originally posted by dave
Denial, the most predictable of human emotions.

It's not a disease, you fucking retard.

All the really smart people out here..capable of phrasing a decent, compelling argument, and then there's you, Dave -- resorting to profanity and name calling, I presume because that's as hard as your mind wants to work?

Maybe it's just that that's how people treat you.

I am saying precisely that. It's not a disease, it's a choice. Like every choice, it has its ups and downs.

There. I used small words. If you have any other questions, let me know. And in spite of the profanity, thank you for making my point.

J

[Tobiasly]

Originally posted by a case study
He thinks about ME, not about some guy.

And how exactly do you know this? You don't. Even if he swears up and down until he's blue in the face, you will never know what is going on inside his head.

My wife will never know what goes on inside my head. No doubt sometimes she would be pleased and sometimes she wouldn't, but I'm not gonna tell her. I think she would rather not know when I'm fantasizing about a supermodel, so it's best for both of us if I just keep that to myself.

Just like your husband is doing. He's gay, and no amount of blood, sweat, and tears will change that. It's how he's wired.

All the really smart people out here..capable of phrasing a decent, compelling argument, and then there's you, Dave -- resorting to profanity and name calling

If you can't handle what people are going to say about your situation, don't be a chicken shit and have someone else ask it while you lurk around to hear the answer.

So who is it that you believe makes a decent, compelling argument? Here I thought we were just a bunch of windbags.

[Undertoad]

Just the idea of having to get "acclimated" to sex with a woman! Hon, to a straight male, there's no acclimation. It's built into us. We can't ignore it and it's not confusing at all. It's an animal drive, and it's led to several billion of us getting created.

Stick it in, move it around a bit, feels real good, orgasm. There hasn't been a set of directions this simple since "lather, rinse, repeat."

[a case study]

Originally posted by Tobiasly

If you can't handle what people are going to say about your situation, don't be a chicken shit and have someone else ask it while you lurk around to hear the answer. [/b]

I actually didn't. Juju asked to post it, and I said okay. I am in a state of flux, because, as he mentioned, I'm not sure where we're going to be in a few months. Meanwhile, I was interested in hearing what other people said I had to say.

And maybe I am in denial, and maybe I'm not. I suppose I'm the only one out here struggling with something--?-- But I'm not lurking, I'm here.

J

[a case study]

Originally posted by Tobiasly

If you can't handle what people are going to say about your situation [/b]

And I guess I missed the part where calling someone a "fucking retard" is a valid statement on the situation. Sounds like sanctimonious name-calling to me.

J

[Tobiasly]

Originally posted by a case study
I suppose I'm the only one out here struggling with something

Just because someone comments on others' problems doesn't mean they don't have problems of their own. If someone posts a problem on here (whether it's someone else's or not), it's fair game.

And I guess I missed the part where calling someone a "fucking retard" is a valid statement on the situation. Sounds like sanctimonious name-calling to me.

And calling us "a bunch of windbags typing to hear yourself talk" isn't "sanctimonious name-calling"?

[a case study]

Originally posted by Tobiasly

And calling us "a bunch of windbags typing to hear yourself talk" isn't "sanctimonious name-calling"?

Well, yes, but it was provoked.

[wolf]

In a lot of ways, you allowed yourself to be provoked, case, or at least opened yourself up to it.

I do respect your courage in allowing Juju to tell your story in an open forum. You're dealing here with a bunch of people, of different ages and experiences, and socio-political orientations.

What you are dealing with is an extremely sensitive issue. For you, and for your husband. As I said much earlier on in this thread, decisions have to be made on both your parts, in terms of what is to happen in your marriage. These decisions are often best made with the assistance of some third party, sometimes more than just one. Given the complexity of the situation up to three folks could/should be involved. Private therapist for each of you, and a separate marriage counsellor — If you think the situation has reached this point! I'm a stranger with limited information and insight into your lives. I'm not telling you sight unseen here that you need your heads examined ... all i'm suggesting is because of the depth of complexity of the things that you need to sort out both individually and as a couple, some additional help wouldn't hurt.

Your and your husband's sexual preference and sexual expression are things that you've been dealing with throughout your marriage. There is a bond between you that transcends that. You wouldn't have been together this long if it wasn't there.

Have you already made use of counselling or pastoral counselling services available through your church, or would such contact potentially lead to problems within that community? If so, you might want to look elsewhere for that other perspective. If spiritually based counselling is important to you, look into practices for which that is a focus. Be aware, though that not all secular counsellors are created equal ... the 'he's gay and has to express that get over it' theme that erupted here might also show itself in a professional setting, although more subtly.

Have you at least been able to have open discussions with your husband thoughout your marriage? Is he able to talk to you about his thoughts, his feelings, his fears and uncertainties? Does he know you are able to listen? (assuming that you in fact are) Are you able to share YOUR thoughts, feelings, fears, and uncertainties with him equally?

When it all comes down to it, isn't that a lot of what counts?

I'm heartened to hear from someone who, based on this brief contact, seems to regard marriage not as something that is disposable, but as something that should be, and deserves to be, worked on.