9/3/2003: Indian bridge collapse

[Whit]

      Oh yeah, and if you notice, I've never once mentioned good, evil or service to society. Since it's all guess-work I've got no idea why that would have any bearing on how tragic a kids death is.

[LUVBUGZ]

Originally posted by Whit
Also, I think I need to clarify something. When speaking of potential I'm also including that portion which the adult has already experienced. No one should be cheated of the exhilarating highs and lows of growing up. Thus in Quazah's example of the thirty year old, the adult has most likely (I'm assuming US middle class for the sake of discussion) bought a car, been in love, hated his/her job and made love. A child has done none of these things. So, the child has more potential in the sense of having so many things to experience for the first time. Perhaps this is meaningless to Bugz and Quzah, but to me it's meaningful and incredibly important.

For many people life offers many lows, and very few highs so if a kid were to miss out on a miserable life I don't find that tragic in the least. Not every 30 yr. old has experienced the things you've listed above. I was 33 before I got my first new car and now have to spend the next 30 paying it off. Even if they have had those experiences, nothing says those experiences were pleasurable. Life isn't a great huge bowl of cherries, even for US middle class adults. I personally have no maternal instincts to protect children so that idea doesn't hold any value with me either.

[Whit]

      I didn't say "new car" I said "car" for the specific reason that many of us never buy one new. Also, I used the example of "hated his/her job" for the sole purpose of giving an example of an unpleasant thing. That's the life of an adult, I think everyone should get a shot at it.

From Bugz:
I personally have no maternal instincts to protect children so that idea doesn't hold any value with me either.

      For that reason you have my deepest sympathies. Though it does explain to me why your view of life seems so dismal.

[LUVBUGZ]

Originally posted by Whit
      Oh yeah, and if you notice, I've never once mentioned good, evil or service to society. Since it's all guess-work I've got no idea why that would have any bearing on how tragic a kids death is.

Yea, I noticed . I brought up those points because that is how *I* have decided whether a persons (kid or adult) death is tragic to *me*. You're right it is guess work, but for *me* it has "bearing" on this issue because that's what *I* look at in evaluating the level of tragedy in death. You were the one who wanted commentary so I've given my opinion. It is neither wrong nor right, it is simply my opinion. I have attempted to provide examples in an attempt to convey my opinion. They are not scientific or mathematical proofs that can be proven or disproved, they are simply *my* opinion. You have a right to your feelings and opinions just as I do. I have not once suggested that you change your opinion on this matter so why do you find it necessary to change mine?

[Whit]

      LOL, I ask for clarification because I don't understand something and now I'm hounding you to change your opinion?
      I appreciate the examples you've given, and I've responded to them by addressing them, without changing words or meanings as you so often do me. I really don't care if your opinion changes, that's not what I'm here for. What I was trying to do is better understand what your opinion is. At least understand the logic backing it, and give that logic the chance to change my opinion. In this way I may grow as a human being.
      If you only wish to state your opinion with no reply of needing clarification or alternate viewpoint being expressed in return why is it that you bother to post where we can all read it? Hmm, given your past... emotional responses... I want to go on record right now as saying this is not an attack. I really would like to know, simply because I don't understand.

[LUVBUGZ]

Originally posted by Whit
For that reason you have my deepest sympathies. Though it does explain to me why your view of life seems so dismal.

I don't need, nor do I want your sympathy. In making this statement you are not only attacking me and my beliefs, but also those of millions of people who chose not to have children. We are people too and I find it hypocritical of you to ramble on about how wonderful kids are, yet at the same time condeming others simply because they hold different beliefs than yourself. How do you know that "the children" who are killed so "tragically" won't grow up to hold the same beliefs as I do. In that case should they just die on the bridge with the adults? I don't run around hurting or killing kids, I just prefer not to have any myself for reasons I won't get into at the moment. Yes, my life is dismal, but not because I don't want kids or because I don't think that they are the only things life is worth living for. I would appreciate it if you don't want to hear someone else's opinion than don't ask for it.

[Whit]

From Bugz:
at the same time condeming others

     Please show how I've condemned anyone. Also, I didn't say anything about everyone that doesn't want kids, heck I didn't want kids 'till I had 'em. I just referenced you. Where you get the great generalization from is beyond me.

[Whit]

     Oh yeah, and I do want your opinion. Heh, and no, neither kids that may or may not grow up with your beliefs nor you, yourself deserve to die. Kind of a big jump, to assume I'd want that. I'm actually a pretty nice guy, just curious. I'm sorry if I've offended you by questioning your opinion. When you gave it I thought it was up for discussion. Mine are.

[LUVBUGZ]

Basically, Whit, I've just spent the past few hours reading, quoting, replying, justifing myself, yadda, yadda, yadda in the Big Pig Thread so I currently don't have the energy to do so here. I do not believe that a kids death is more tragic than an adults, period. In fact, I find an animals death much more tragic than a kids or an adults, but that is a topic for another thread. In this discussion I got the feeling that you were taking punches at me just because I feel differently than you do (ex. condesending tone of this remark "For that reason you have my deepest sympathies. Though it does explain to me why your view of life seems so dismal.") So naturally, I felt the need to defend my views. If you can find it in yourself to forgive the assumptions, generalizations, and whatever else you think I've done inappropriately in this discussion, I would appreciate it.

[warch]

for the record: I have instinctive compasion and care for children even though I have personally chosen not to reproduce and be a parent. I dont think I am that unusual.

[xoxoxoBruce]

I love children, but I don't think I could eat a whole one.

[warch]

Yeah. I have trouble with veal.

[elSicomoro]

Fuck that...veal is delicious. MORE SUFFERING OF CALVES!!!

[Whit]

      Heh, you know what Bugz? We just can't seem to synch up here. I concede that line came across as pretty condesending. I really didn't mean it that way but after a 14 hour shift on three hours of sleep it came out gruffer than I meant it to. I could explain what I meant, but I don't think you are interested.
      For the record, I didn't mind a lot of the things you apologized for. I do think you are going to have trouble in Cellar discussions if you continue to misread what people write. For instance the new car example, or when I said, "Most likely" and you replied with "not all". I already conceded that. I really don't think you are reading what I say. Just treating it as an attack. This saddens me, it's not what I'm about.
      I am curious as to why you see animal deaths as more tragic than human of any sort though. Please explain.

[quzah]

Originally posted by Whit
I am curious as to why you see animal deaths as more tragic than human of any sort though. Please explain.

I like animals more than people. For the masses, I'll liken them to children.

You (someone) feel that you need to protect the helpless.
I feel the need to protect the helpless animals that are going extinct left and right.

But that's just me, and I am probably a bit more to the extreme than most of you folk. I don't eat or use anything animal or that has been processed on equipment used for animals or "animal products". I don't smash spiders that run around my house, I take them outside. Same with bees, even though I have a great loathing for them. I don't smash mosquitoes that bite me. Hell, I don't even pick flowers because in my opinion, it's cruel.

Sure, plants are thought to not feel pain, but what if they do?

You see, it is my belief that I should inflict as little harm on my enviornment as I can. I don't need animals to live a healthy life, so why should I bother? Most everything I eat can be obtained without killing the plant itself also.

Like flowers. They're nice to look at, but I don't need them, so I leave them be.

Quzah.