A mirrow reflection.

[juju]

Jag, i'm glad you're weighing in, because your opinions are interesting to me. But for god's sake, spell check!! :)

Re: third world coming to first world

Jaggy baby, I covered this. Countries *can* and *do* make huge progress when they're motivated. Look at Japan (and while you're looking, I'll be over here, snooping through your stuff!). A lot of these countries have great natural resources - they just need to *want* to change. I'm sure many of them don't. My point is, that's not your fault. You shouldn't feel guilty over drooling on my PowerMac G4, and neither should some poor african. And if they want to change it that badly, they should come to American or Canada or some country that will support them in their dream.

Re: facts.

FreeYourself's comment was, very obviously, directed at me. It is also blatantly false. I am not driven by numbers or dollar signs - I am driven by intellectual conversation and, when challenged, backing up your <b>assertions</b> with <b>facts</b>. He (she? it?) is making shit up to dehumanize me and make me appear to be materialistic and greedy, when really, I just like living how I do, have compassion for the rest of the world and, above all, like intelligent people. If he hadn't degraded the conversation by getting into namecalling, I would have never needed to make that comment. I don't expect numbers or dollars - I expect some evidence. I'm not some gullible schmuck here - that's why I reject the Bible. Anything or anyone that makes claims without substantiating them is blowing hot air, as far as I'm concerned.

[jaguar]

Jaggy baby, I covered this. Countries *can* and *do* make huge progress when they're motivated. Look at Japan (and while you're looking, I'll be over here, snooping through your stuff!). A lot of these countries have great natural resources - they just need to *want* to change. I'm sure many of them don't. My point is, that's not your fault. You shouldn't feel guilty over drooling on my PowerMac G4, and neither should some poor African. And if they want to change it that badly, they should come to American or Canada or some country that will support them in their dream.

I didn't know whether to laugh or cry when I read this..

To go though it slowly.

A lot of these countries have great natural resources

Which are then exploited by multinationals with buggar all benefits to the local - or overtly exploited permanently fucking up half the country/people. That material that is needed for capacitors comes to mind, or coal in China, or open cut mining in general.

they just need to *want* to change

Classic! I can just see Zambia or somewhere as the little train going up the GDP hill (I know I can I know I can - if I wasn’t clobbered by first world tariffs, enormous debt and total lack of infrastructure/positive international investment.

And if they want to change it that badly, they should come to American or Canada or some country that will support them in their dream.

The fact you think they can jut get up and wander into a first world country like that makes your point laughable to begin with - didn't you read what I said? The waiting lists and processes associated with getting in are huge, and even illegal methods costs one hell of allot of money (trips to Australia from places like Iran average about US$10,000 ,for us that’s big of them its like a wealthy families life savings.

I'm sure many of them don't.

I can't frigging blame them sometimes. Happiest people I ever met were Buddhist monks, the philosophy is simple, attachment to impermant objects (dishwashers, Volvos, G4s, web discussion sites, schools) causes pain - because they do not last, when you are free of attachment to material objects, you will be happy. Sure seems to work. It does illustrate how deep attachment and desire for these things go, it’s not a new thing, it’s not a capitalist thing, but as we continue to try and live like machines, I think it’s getting worse. Damnit there is a ghost in the machine.

I don't expect numbers or dollars - I expect some evidence.

Of often its not that easy, I could point out stats like increasing working hours etc but its so easy to dismiss circumstantial evidence like that its not worth my time, I agree FreeYourself's method of putting his point across stand of moral high ground but if you push that shit aside, he does have a point.



Parents are working longer to get promotions or whatever so kids spend longer in care, in turn parents feel guilty to lavish kids with material shit like consoles, expensive toys etc which to buggar all to alleviate the problem, marriages fall apart, divorce lawyers make a killing but then spend it on crack to quench their deep guilt, nasty circle. (yes I realize how silly the last paragraph is but most of that early stuff I can back up with stats, care hours/work hours are increasing though the roof, divorce is at an all time high (although there are other factors of that of course) the list goes on)

You shouldn't feel guilty over drooling on my PowerMac G4, and neither should some poor African

I feel quite sure some poor African couldn’t give a fuck about your G4, he would just like some food, and maybe some new farming tools. Obviously then he'd want a tractor, larger fields, etcetc but I think you are missing the scale of the problem. Have you ever been to a third world country? Fuck the pictures, fuck the world vision ads, you have to see it with your own eyes to understand, I didn't get it until I saw a kid dead in a gutter.

[elSicomoro]

Ah, always good to see our young intellectual corps (dham and jag) in action. I almost missed this. But we have a bit too much emotion in here at the moment. Where's tw?

[Torrere]

Who else is at a loss from our consumerism? Those people who build the items which we are addicted to buying.

Hm. Probably a naive view, but..

I think the conditions for these people might be better working in sweatshops than outside. Definitely underpaid and possibly unsanitary, but you're comparing it to our conditions rather than local conditions.

Are people like FreeYourself complaining about how bad of conditions greedy corporations are making people live in, or that they're taking away from American jobs that the employers would have to pay decent wages for, and keep the consumer's money in the American economy?

[jaguar]

Are people like FreeYourself complaining about how bad of conditions greedy corporations are making people live in, or that they're taking away from American jobs that the employers would have to pay decent wages for, and keep the consumer's money in the American economy?

The entertaiing double edged sword that is globalisation i'm glad is finally biting america on the arse, thousands of out of work coders replaced by cut-rate coders in India and the like...

I think the conditions for these people might be better working in sweatshops than outside. Definitely underpaid and possibly unsanitary, but you're comparing it to our conditions rather than local conditions.

Having visited both Nike nad Adidas Factories in Vietnam i can tell you a: Nike is far worse, b: Even by lcoal conditions, it sucks.

[Undertoad]

Remember the "night sky" image?

[jaguar]

That wher do you want to go today line was distubing...

NOrth Korea is a special example, not many countires are cursed with such a terrible leadership.

I'm going to keep this short, 'cause I need to get up in 5 hours.

Which are then exploited by multinationals with buggar all benefits to the local - or overtly exploited permanently fucking up half the country/people. That material that is needed for capacitors comes to mind, or coal in China, or open cut mining in general.

Which is why they need a government to stand up for them, like I said before.

The fact you think they can jut get up and wander into a first world country like that makes your point laughable to begin with - didn't you read what I said? The waiting lists and processes associated with getting in are huge, and even illegal methods costs one hell of allot of money (trips to Australia from places like Iran average about US$10,000 ,for us that’s big of them its like a wealthy families life savings.

Do you know what people do when they want something bad enough? <b>They find a way to do it</b>. It's probably not easy, and it's probably not cheap, and it might take a fucking long time, but <b>anything is possible</b>. Don't give me that shit about it being hard. Life is hard, as I'm sure they'd tell you. If you want something bad enough, you make it yours.

As for going there, no, I haven't. The awfulness of the situations is not the point, and neither is the understanding of them. What is important is human nature, and the willpower to enact change. Great people have done great things, even with the most meager of tools. Look no farther than Gandhi. Humans can do whatever they want, as long as they want it bad enough. That's my point, and that's all.

[Scopulus Argentarius]

Originally posted by FreeYourself
"I dunno man. There's a lot to be said for consumerism. I'm glad you're enlightened, but... I enjoy my consumerist lifestyle.

oh well."


Those last 2 words are the exact response to 99% of north america. Being glad can only accomplish so much dude. It's time act!

I want you to enjoy your lifestyle, just like i want everyone to, but do it in a way not destructive to our environment and/or too the people of this world that we so often 'appear' to forget about.

Ever looked upon Fravia's opinion (at searchlores.org) concerning a more militant protest of forced consumerism? I believe F calls it 'Reality Jamming' or something like that...

[jaguar]

While your faith in individuals is inspiring, I’m a bit of a Marxist at heart, individuals are largely irrelevant.

Which is why they need a government to stand up for them, like I said before.

While you quoted half of what I said.
The other half...

Classic! I can just see Zambia or somewhere as the little train going up the GDP hill (I know I can I know I can - if I wasn’t clobbered by first world tariffs, enormous debt and total lack of infrastructure/positive international investment.

The fact is that to gain power you need a tool - read the foundation series by Asimov - they have been on a shitty planet but they had tech, and used that as leverage to get other power. These countries have a: labor b: irreplaceable natural resources, both of which are exploited, with little long term benefit to the people involved.

As for this perverted American dream idea that if you want something enough well you can get it etcetc, sorry but its time you thought from reality, not some high flying fancy notion. You’re a farmer, lets say a poppy farmers (SO what you sell helps mentally disturbed westerners disattach themselves from their pitiful existences - sorry I couldn’t help myself) in Burma, you want to bring yourself and your family to a first world nation. YOU have no saving, no money stores with which to even buy food to support yourselves if you went by foot, how the fuck are you meant to do it? How can entire nations of people who want to do it do it? The third world, millions of people are stopped yearly at he border of Europe, begging to be let into the prosperity that lies across the border, its not that simple. What do you expect? Some Ghandi-like figure to lead the masses across the borders? Mass protest that will force Europe, Australia and America to open themselves to endless hordes of the impoverished?

The only way these countires can rise out of poverty is if ABSOLUTEL FUCKING BULLSHIT idea of a free market that is continually sputed by BORWNNOSING, BULLSHIT STUFFED POLITICANS WHO SHOULD BE FORECD TO SPEND 6 MONTHS SHOVELLING SHIT TO SEE WHAT ITS LIKE BEFORE THEY SPOUT THAT KIND OF BULLSHIT (sorry that really gets to me) implimented totally - no tarifs, no industry subsidies. ON an even plain they have the advanteages to be able to slwoly rise.

[Undertoad]

From what I can tell, the local government has to provide an infrastructure of laws that permits trade, prevents fraud and (this is the most important part) that is respected by the government itself, that is, that won't be broken just because someone finds it convenient at some point.

I think, but I'm not sure, that this means a system of deeds and titles to prove ownership, so that the concept of ownership settles in. If people are to improve their land, they need to know that it won't merely be taken over after the next change in leadership.

[russotto]

Originally posted by FreeYourself
I meant to say mirror, sorry.
"Live simply so that all may simply live"

Quality over quantity.

Why must you have a bigger tv?
...a bigger house?
...a faster car?
...whiter teeth?
...smoother hair?
...bigger sound system?
...newer shoes?

Bigger TV: It's 27". I like it that way.

Bigger house: because my apartment was too small to hold my stuff, and besides, renting was getting to be a drag.

Faster car: Because I enjoy driving fast.

Whiter teeth: Would be nice, but genetics dictate against it.

Smoother hair: I need a haircut, but not smoother hair. However, really rough hair is hard to comb and isn't nice to play with, so I can see why people would want smoother hair.

Bigger sound system: Sorry, I'm not a music person

Newer shoes: because my old shoes are falling apart and/or are soiled past the point of no return.

I want to know for I have seen through these empty pleasures.

And replaced them with an equally empty asceticism? Sounds like a raw deal; if you're going to be empty you may as well have pleasure.

[doc]

Doesn't this thread belong under Politics? To be honest I kind of like the fairly non-political nature of IotD.

Probably. But part of IotD is that it has discussions based around the images. You always have the option of not reading any given discussion.