Ecologically-friendly nuclear

[russotto]

Originally Posted by wolf

I like the interesting puffy, almost mushroom shaped clouds from the tops of the towers. I see them most days on the way to work.

When there's heavy cloud cover, sometimes the vapor from the cooling towers will extend to the cloud base, making it look like Limerick is the source of the whole thing. Occasionally there will be only one cloud, presumably because the other unit has been shut down. Very rarely is there none at all.

Random fact: While New Zealand is famously nuclear-free, they have a geothermal power station with a basically identical cooling tower.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

If Cromby's distance counts, and "ignoring the much closer Cromby" is part of your reasoning, then you can't use the 20% figure which completely ignores distance. Do you see that?

UT - provided were three different ways to calculate your electricity sources. The first assumed all adjacent plants first provide your electricity. Second is to assume all nearby plants provide your electricity. Third is to assume electricity is fungible - that the entire grid provides your electricity. In each case, your electricity is no where near to 100% or 87% nuclear. By now, that should have been obvious.

Using the perspective of distance, or by assuming electricity is fungible: either way, your electric sources are predominately fossil fuel. Facts provided with numbers too large and one sided to challenge if using logic.

How many times can you just ignore the numbers and ignore other adjacent (and closer) fossil fuel plants? You ignore numbers when it is convenient? Rush Limbaugh and Karl Rove love that type of reasoning. It explains why lies about weapons of mass destruction are believed and why The Lancet study of 98,000 dead Iraqis due to the American invasion is repeatedly denied (even after Schroninger's Cat spend so much time to explain it). Selective reasoning or simply ignoring inconvenient numbers? Which is it? Your electricity is not 100% or 87% generated by nuclear. At this point, the denial must be humor.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

Because nobody wants to authorize a new nuclear plant.

At about $15 per megawatt hour to produce electricity, a nuclear plant can only be profitable if oil prices rise AND if premiums for insurance (due to high risk) is carried by the Federal government. For those who believe in a free market, nuclear power (fission type) remains only marginally profitable.

[tw]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

What is Montgomery County Recycling center?

Electrically MCR connects to the grid in Plymouth Meeting. I believe it is located adjacent the Blue Route.

Cromby is maybe half way between Limerick and the Cellar. To provide electricity, Limerick would connect to The Cellar using what appears to be a single 230,000 volt transmission line that first feeds Cromby using, in part, an abandoned railroad 'right of way'.

In reality, most of Limerick's electricity directly connects to maybe four 500,000 volt transmission towers headed east for places like Hatfield, Somerville, and N Jersey. Or on two 500,000 volt transmission lines that head west and south towards Peach Bottom and Muddy Run (a lake that stores electricity by pumping water into a reservoir). 500,000 volt transmission lines are PJM's backbone. IOW electricity from Limerick is particularly fungible - shared by all in the grid. This is also why (in part) so many electric generation companies (ie Florida Power and Light) wanted to build natural gas electric generators adjacent to these 500,000 volt backbones. They too could provide power to the entire grid (not just locally) from that location. In today's wholesale electric market, that location on the grid would be more profitable. They would not need only the Cellar region for customers.

[Undertoad]

Originally Posted by tw

UT - provided were three different ways to calculate your electricity sources. The first assumed all adjacent plants first provide your electricity. Second is to assume all nearby plants provide your electricity. Third is to assume electricity is fungible - that the entire grid provides your electricity. In each case, your electricity is no where near to 100% or 87% nuclear. By now, that should have been obvious.

Ah yes, the usual fact-based TW provides me with three different ways to calculate and all are completely logical and obvious. Despite the fact that they all produce wildly different results.

The only thing they have in common is that they prove me wrong. That's a nice logical and scientific agenda, close enough for the Cellar.

[Undertoad]

I was playing around with Google Earth, and traced the high-tension lines coming from Cromby. One set leads down to Barbadoes (sp?) Island near Norristown, where it links up with another plant of some sort - is this the recycling plant? - and then seems to head down the Schulykill towards the city. The other set goes across the county, links up with a much bigger set from Limerick, and winds up at a substation on North Wales Rd near Rt 73.

[russotto]

There used to be a generator at Barbadoes. Also a PECO training facility. I believe both have been shut down. After that there was a substation; that caught fire a few years ago. I'm not sure if it's in use at all now.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

I was playing around with Google Earth, and traced the high-tension lines coming from Cromby. One set leads down to Barbadoes (sp?) Island near Norristown, where it links up with another plant of some sort - is this the recycling plant? - and then seems to head down the Schulykill towards the city. The other set goes across the county, links up with a much bigger set from Limerick, and winds up at a substation on North Wales Rd near Rt 73.

Limerick sends what appears to be a smaller (230Kv) transmission line down to Cromby. Cromby then sends power to Philadelphia and to North Wales. The line to Philadelphia would pass through a switchyard in Barbadoes (I believe it was once a generator station and is now only a training facility). That line from Cromby also powers substations in the vicinity of The Cellar.

Limerick does not connect to North Wales. The backbone goes farther north to Whitpain and Soudertown where the backbone feeds NJ.

Another switchyard in that Cromby line would be Plymouth Meeting. The Mongomery County Recycling Center would be somewhere adjacent to this switchyard; located somewhere as the Blue Route intersects Ridge Pike and the PA Turnpike.

If power on this line is headed east, then Cromby would be the source. If power on this line is headed west, then Richmond, Eddystone, Schuykill, Delaware, and other fossil fuel only plants would be the electrical source. Montgomery County Recycling being closest to The Cellar.

Meanwhile, if those many natural gas turbines had been built (they would have been closer to The Cellar than Limerick), then still those generators would have been major providers to the backbone where electricity is more fungible. Florida Power and Light wanted generators that could sell power more easily to the entire grid.

BTW, the market leader in free market energy is, I believe, PJM. I suspect PJM sets the standards for responsible grid management and for free market energy sales. How big is PJM monitoring? They even monitor electricity in the Chicago region and in VA's Dominion Power. PJM is also the national grid that stopped the blackout from proceding all the way to FL. Stopped it from the west and then stopped it from the north. No wonder better utilities such as Dominion Power want to join PJM.

Meanwhile, the closest source of electricity for The Cellar are fossil fuel. The grid only provides 20% of electricity from nuclear. Now maybe those numbers will increase slightly when Excelon takes over Salem and Hope Creek nuclear reactors. I don't know how unreliable those nuclear plants are, but they are considered some of the most dangerous in the US. IOW I don't know how often those plants have been producing electricity. Reports on problems in those plants have been sketchy and vague. But at least one plant has extremely serious vibration problems (that may require a major refurbishment). Maybe those plants could push the Cellar's nuclear power consumption up a few percentage points?

[Undertoad]

I see that line now, it masquerades as railroad track part of the way.

But I also see 6 high voltage lines going directly from Limerick to N. Wales?

[tw]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

But I also see 6 high voltage lines going directly from Limerick to N. Wales?

What streets? Power lines from Cromby and Limerick would have to cross somewhere in the vicinity of the Perkiomen River. Haven't been in that region so I am not sure where.

[Undertoad]

They cross the Perkiomen Creek just a nudge south of Graterford.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

They cross the Perkiomen Creek just a nudge south of Graterford.

Found those power lines on a Collegeville Quadrangle geographical map. Lines from Limerick and Cromby cross the Pekiomen together and run parallel until they cross Route 113. Then the Limerick wires cross over the Cromby wires to head west; to connect to the rest of the PJM backbone. Cromby wires continue NW to North Wales.

[Undertoad]

The satellite photos show two Cromby wires joining 6 Limerick wires and then after a while 2 wires head NE while 6 wires head SE to North Wales.

[Bullitt]

Are you two seriously arguing about power lines ?

[Happy Monkey]

The magic of the internet.