11/22/2002: The Petersburg Orchid - Page 4

CharlieG · 11-25-2002, 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by juju
Because, they're not given a choice of where they live or what they eat. You're forcing both on them.
...snip...

Most cats are outdoor cats - they can leave anytime they like - hint, they don't. They actually LIKE us. We give them good food, a warm dry place to live, and lots of love.

Want a REALLY affectionate pet? Take in a stray cat or dog! You will end up with a VERY thankful pet! Something about regular meals they don't have to work for

Griff · 11-25-2002, 09:10 AM

Dogs and people which chose the other?

philgump · 11-25-2002, 12:14 PM

JuJu:

First of all the whole nonsense comparison of pets being slaves is just an ignorant comment. For the most part I say that the confinement of animals is ‘unjust’, that is when we talk about gorillas, monkeys, elephants, wild birds or most wildlife species. On the other hand, when you speak of Dogs and Cats (primarily) you are not talking about ‘wildlife’ these are domesticated animals. They depend on humans for food and nutrition and even if they have never been in contact with humans would take several generations for this to be breed out of them.

I currently do not own a single pet (mainly because it hurts too much to see them die).

If you think that owning a pet is slavery then I have to say you certainly have a warped prospective on life. Pets can lower your stress, increase your life span, and bring a general feel of harmony to your life. Dogs and cats without owners sink into deep depressions and often die of loneliness, not exactly what happens with slaves!

Lonley Pets

Undertoad · 11-25-2002, 03:36 PM

At the very least, dogs and cats live longer and much less stressed lives in domestication than they would in the wild.

My girl may require $1500 in vet bills to take care of her gimpy leg, which she got just running around. In the wild she'd become turkey vulture food.

The girl is extremely happy with her lot, even with a bad leg. She stays close to home at all times, very anxious of others although she loves all.

The boy sometimes thinks there might be a better pack on the block, and will trot off for 20 minutes or so, but he eventually comes back, deciding that we're still the best bet.

Both run right to their crates at the word "crate" even though they are going to spend hours there, because they think of the crate as their personal cave/nest.

juju · 11-25-2002, 03:38 PM

The fact that people enjoy having pets has nothing to do with the morality of it. Again, whites enjoyed having black slaves. Many times there would be a black woman that cooked dinner, cleaned, and generally took care of the house. Though they were servants, they were considered part of the family. Love doesn't negate the dominant/submission pattern.

I'm trying to define slavery as being confined in one place and being restricted in your actions (aka house arrest), although the addition of a physical labor requirement does seem like it would make the definition more sane. So I could see pets as not being slaves as long as they aren't doing labor, but then horses and mules would definitely be considered slaves.

Still, just because "they like it", that doesn't make it not slavery. That has been used an excuse for slavery nearly every time it has occurred.

Undertoad · 11-25-2002, 04:02 PM

I got it. If you're going to compare it to something, compare it to having a family member with a very very low IQ.

Or a child. You are responsible for what they do, so they don't have free will, they don't have a democracy where they get a vote. If left to themselves, they would likely injure or kill themselves or others.

Slavery and will require a higher understanding than cats and dogs and infants and children are capable of. It's in their best interests that they are not treated like adults.

juju · 11-25-2002, 04:32 PM

I'm totally cool with that definition, as long as people stop telling me how smart their pets are.

I really find that some people take the anthropomorphization of animals too far. Some people think that animals are just as smart if not smarter than humans, and that they have our full range of reasoning and emotional abilities. It really bugs me, and I say if they're going to treat them just like people, they should really go all the way. If you're going to confine them to your home (yeah yeah, not everyone does this, but many do), at least have the decency to objectify them. Elsewise you're treating an equal as an inferior.

Let's be clear, though. I think they're inferior, and that it's not slavery. But I say that if you're going to treat them as equals, actually do it instead of saying you're doing it.

Tobiasly · 11-25-2002, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by juju
Still, just because "they like it", that doesn't make it not slavery.

Sure it does -- slavery means involuntary. If they like it, it's not involuntary (OK, they aren't exactly antonyms, but I'm sure you see my point.)

You may disagree on whether the "slaves" actually enjoy their lot, but if they do enjoy the arrangement, and prefer it to any other arrangement available to them, it's not slavery.

Zorg · 11-26-2002, 04:29 AM

I think juju is on to something here! Instead of cooping up all those poor animals in farms and zoos, let them all loose! Want beef for dinner? Then chase down a cow and kill it. Want to see a lion? Use the beef as bait to lure it into your driveway.

And Hell, why stop with the animal world? After all, they're not conscious as humans are. But did you know that there are humans whose every movement is watched and monitored, and have no opportunies to exert their free will? They're called babies.

Juju, brave social visionary that he is, will no doubt agree that this so called "parenting" is nothing but legal slavery! Set free all babies now!

tjennings · 11-26-2002, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Zorg
And Hell, why stop with the animal world? After all, they're not conscious as humans are. But did you know that there are humans whose every movement is watched and monitored, and have no opportunies to exert their free will? They're called babies.

Point of order: I currently have a baby on premises (age 6 1/2 months). While it is true that she is watched and to some extent monitored, she is exerting her free will all over the place.

Tobiasly · 11-26-2002, 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by juju
I'm totally cool with that definition, as long as people stop telling me how smart their pets are. I really find that some people take the anthropomorphization of animals too far.

Why, just last night, I was up late as usual, finishing up a bit of code on a side project of mine.

It was late, and I had cut myself off the caffeine an hour or two earlier. So I really wasn't thinking too clearly, and I made an all-too-common error:

      if ($cols{id} = 1) {


Well, ol' Al starts barking up a storm, with his tail straight out and his big ol' puppy paw pointed at the monitor. "What is it, boy?" I asked. Then it hit me!

      if ($cols{id} == 1) {


Once again, Al saves the day! Good boy!

arz · 11-26-2002, 11:30 AM

Maybe Al can come over and watch me try to configure my WAP router for my Powerbook and tell me why it's not working and what I'm doing wrong, because my two cats are pretty useless.

11-26-2002, 11:44 AM

What WAP you got?

Tobiasly · 11-26-2002, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by arz
Maybe Al can come over and watch me try to configure my WAP router for my Powerbook and tell me why it's not working and what I'm doing wrong, because my two cats are pretty useless.

I asked him about your problem.

Looks like he's still pondering the issue. I'll let you know when he comes up with something.

Undertoad · 11-26-2002, 02:33 PM

When the ears go back like that it's usually a configuration problem, not a hardware problem or anything serious.

11-25-2002, 09:10 AM	#47
Griff still says videotape Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 26,813	Dogs and people which chose the other? __________________ If you would only recognize that life is hard, things would be so much easier for you. - Louis D. Brandeis

11-25-2002, 12:14 PM	#48
philgump Romantic Necromancer Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 29	Pet Slaves JuJu: First of all the whole nonsense comparison of pets being slaves is just an ignorant comment. For the most part I say that the confinement of animals is ‘unjust’, that is when we talk about gorillas, monkeys, elephants, wild birds or most wildlife species. On the other hand, when you speak of Dogs and Cats (primarily) you are not talking about ‘wildlife’ these are domesticated animals. They depend on humans for food and nutrition and even if they have never been in contact with humans would take several generations for this to be breed out of them. I currently do not own a single pet (mainly because it hurts too much to see them die). If you think that owning a pet is slavery then I have to say you certainly have a warped prospective on life. Pets can lower your stress, increase your life span, and bring a general feel of harmony to your life. Dogs and cats without owners sink into deep depressions and often die of loneliness, not exactly what happens with slaves! Lonley Pets __________________ PHILGUMP!

11-25-2002, 04:32 PM	#52
juju no one of consequence Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Arkansas Posts: 2,839	I'm totally cool with that definition, as long as people stop telling me how smart their pets are. I really find that some people take the anthropomorphization of animals too far. Some people think that animals are just as smart if not smarter than humans, and that they have our full range of reasoning and emotional abilities. It really bugs me, and I say if they're going to treat them just like people, they should really go all the way. If you're going to confine them to your home (yeah yeah, not everyone does this, but many <i>do</i>), at least have the decency to objectify them. Elsewise you're treating an equal as an inferior. Let's be clear, though. I think they're inferior, and that it's not slavery. But I say that if you're going to treat them as equals, actually do it instead of saying you're doing it. Last edited by juju; 11-25-2002 at 04:34 PM.

11-25-2002, 03:36 PM	#49
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	At the very least, dogs and cats live longer and much less stressed lives in domestication than they would in the wild. My girl may require $1500 in vet bills to take care of her gimpy leg, which she got just running around. In the wild she'd become turkey vulture food. The girl is extremely happy with her lot, even with a bad leg. She stays close to home at all times, very anxious of others although she loves all. The boy sometimes thinks there might be a better pack on the block, and will trot off for 20 minutes or so, but he eventually comes back, deciding that we're still the best bet. Both run right to their crates at the word "crate" even though they are going to spend hours there, because they think of the crate as their personal cave/nest.

11-25-2002, 03:38 PM	#50
juju no one of consequence Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Arkansas Posts: 2,839	The fact that people enjoy having pets has nothing to do with the morality of it. Again, whites enjoyed having black slaves. Many times there would be a black woman that cooked dinner, cleaned, and generally took care of the house. Though they were servants, they were considered part of the family. Love doesn't negate the dominant/submission pattern. I'm trying to define slavery as being confined in one place and being restricted in your actions (aka house arrest), although the addition of a physical labor requirement does seem like it would make the definition more sane. So I could see pets as not being slaves as long as they aren't doing labor, but then horses and mules would definitely be considered slaves. Still, just because "they like it", that doesn't make it not slavery. That has been used an excuse for slavery nearly every time it has occurred.

11-25-2002, 04:02 PM	#51
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	I got it. If you're going to compare it to something, compare it to having a family member with a very very low IQ. Or a child. You are responsible for what they do, so they don't have free will, they don't have a democracy where they get a vote. If left to themselves, they would likely injure or kill themselves or others. Slavery and will require a higher understanding than cats and dogs and infants and children are capable of. It's in their best interests that they are not treated like adults.

11-26-2002, 04:29 AM	#54
Zorg Layperson Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 13	I think juju is on to something here! Instead of cooping up all those poor animals in farms and zoos, let them all loose! Want beef for dinner? Then chase down a cow and kill it. Want to see a lion? Use the beef as bait to lure it into your driveway. And Hell, why stop with the animal world? After all, they're not conscious as humans are. But did you know that there are humans whose every movement is watched and monitored, and have no opportunies to exert their free will? They're called babies. Juju, brave social visionary that he is, will no doubt agree that this so called "parenting" is nothing but legal slavery! Set free all babies now!

11-26-2002, 11:30 AM	#57
arz Hand-of-Kindness Extender Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: So Cal Posts: 137	Maybe Al can come over and watch me try to configure my WAP router for my Powerbook and tell me why it's not working and what I'm doing wrong, because my two cats are pretty useless.

11-26-2002, 11:44 AM	#58
dave Guest Posts: n/a	What WAP you got?

11-26-2002, 02:33 PM	#60
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	When the ears go back like that it's usually a configuration problem, not a hardware problem or anything serious.

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