December 27, 2006: Nigerian gas explosion outcome [very graphic]

[GuyNamedGuy]

As long as the USA wants to claim to be the world leader, to be the example everyone else should follow, then that's when it becomes our *job* to live up to the standards we preach to the world, and set a good example for everyone. Otherwise, we're basically just a bunch of rich thugs with guns, and deserve to get treated as such.

The Constitution is a wonderful document - the Do-It-Yourself Government manual - but it obviously is not the be-all end-all of our government; that's why federal, state and local laws exist to supplement it, and what the Constitution clearly states can still be overridden by local laws. (For example, the Second Amendment clearly states "the right to bear firearms shall not be infringed"..... but any police officer will disagree that that phrase can be interpreted to mean that a criminal waving a firearm around cannot be disarmed while being arrested, or that schools, banks, businesses et al cannot ask people not to bring firearms into their offices. And I agree with the spirit of the Second Amendment! I own guns. I like guns. I think they're fun. But I don't think the Second Amendment gives me unlimited rights in regards to owning and using them, either. Laws in all fifty states uphold that view, contrary to the simple world of the Second Amendment.)

We're doing lots of things nowadays which are not defined in the Constitution, but which become necessary once a nation

a) changes over to a modern technological society and
b) wants (or is forced to be) a world leader.

To give an analogy: there is no law which says parents have to set a good example for their children. Yet everyone wants parents to do so. Everyone complains loudly when parents fail to do so.

Whether we like it or not, we're sort of a parent or older sibling (I hated to say "big brother") to the world. In return for helping out folks, we want/expect the world to sell us unlimited amounts of cheap natural resources - something they're not obligated to do at all. Our "pal"
the Shah of Iran started the whole oil price rise/embargo in 1973, right after the Yom Kippur war. Our good old buddy, the Shah.

Now, we could easily go back to being an isolationist country. We tried this during the 1920s and got World War 2 partially as a result. We tried it during the period from Jan 20 2001 to about 8:50 AM Sep 11 2001 and gee, that didn't work out too well, either, last I checked. With so many dependencies on foreign resources, we're stuck with being

As for the technology, yeah, I guess the jobs will eventually get offshored, but it would sure be nice to at least *try* to bring some manufacturing back into the country. Or at least own some patents for the technology. And there are jobs that would need to stay in the USA - such as washing solar panels, maintaining windmills, and so forth, which would be no doubt undercut by cheap foreign and/or illegal immigrant labor. But at least tens of billions of dollars would not be going overseas to hostile regimes, and we'd cut environmental damage costs which add up in quiet, hidden ways. We forget that $3,000 of a new car is for the platinum in the catalytic converter, for example.

Or we can go down the tubes. It's our choice. This country is no longer really willing to pledge its lives or its fortunes to defend itselfand its interests; when those are gone, the "sacred honor" is a meaningless phrase, a bag of hot air. I want this country to rise to the occasion, to save itself while it still has time, to show it can still work and sacrifice to keep its most precious resources - its independence and freedom. To show the world how it's done, and why the restof the world ought to respedt us. And hey, let's make money while we're at it - I got no problem with that. But there are days where I think I'm the only one left who feels we should sacrifice, or work, or do any-damn-thing, to save ourselves.

[CaliforniaMama]

Originally Posted by GuyNamedGuy

Or we can go down the tubes. It's our choice. This country is no longer really willing to pledge its lives or its fortunes to defend itselfand its interests; when those are gone, the "sacred honor" is a meaningless phrase, a bag of hot air. I want this country to rise to the occasion, to save itself while it still has time, to show it can still work and sacrifice to keep its most precious resources - its independence and freedom. To show the world how it's done, and why the restof the world ought to respedt us. And hey, let's make money while we're at it - I got no problem with that. But there are days where I think I'm the only one left who feels we should sacrifice, or work, or do any-damn-thing, to save ourselves.

It's almost like a huge PR problem. A problem of how to get everyone on the same page. There are too many factions with too many different interests and we can't sit down and see how they can all mesh.

It's like arguing with an SO, but at completely cross purposes. Why argue? Aren't we all in this together?

It is that concept of ONE nation, that we are all in this together that seems to have gotten lost. Or maybe it was never there.

In the movie, The Good Shepherd, Matt Damon's character is talking to a mobster. The mobster says the Italians have their family and their church, the Irish have the homeland . . . but what have the [CIA white dudes] got? Matt Damon's character responds "The USA. The rest of you people are just visiting."

Until we can erase that attitude we are helpless to solve the endemic problems plaguing our land. If we can't fix things at home, how are we supposed to help others? We just end up exporting our own problems and making them global.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by CaliforniaMama

Aren't we all in this together?

No.....not anymore.

Originally Posted by Bruce

The problem with the Mother Jones/Whole Earth view, is that it harkens back to a time when the capitalists cared about the country. Long gone, I'm afraid. Now it's the Buck, the whole Buck and nothing but the Buck.

They have a new allie in offshore labor, they don't need you or the country because they can go live anywhere.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by GuyNamedGuy

As long as the USA wants to claim to be the world leader, to be the example everyone else should follow,

What I've been hearing is we are the sole remaining superpower, and the World's cop, not one word about being the World leader.

then that's when it becomes our *job* to live up to the standards we preach to the world, and set a good example for everyone. Otherwise, we're basically just a bunch of rich thugs with guns, and deserve to get treated as such.

So you're saying what much of the rest of the World has been saying for 100 years.

The Constitution is a wonderful document - the Do-It-Yourself Government manual - but it obviously is not the be-all end-all of our government; that's why federal, state and local laws exist to supplement it, and what the Constitution clearly states can still be overridden by local laws.

No.

(For example, the Second Amendment clearly states "the right to bear firearms shall not be infringed"..... but any police officer will disagree that that phrase can be interpreted to mean that a criminal waving a firearm around cannot be disarmed while being arrested, or that schools, banks, businesses et al cannot ask people not to bring firearms into their offices.

Disarming a threat or restricting you on my (private) property does not violate the language or intent of the Constitution.

And I agree with the spirit of the Second Amendment! I own guns. I like guns. I think they're fun. But I don't think the Second Amendment gives me unlimited rights in regards to owning and using them, either. Laws in all fifty states uphold that view, contrary to the simple world of the Second Amendment.)

Nobody ever said it gave everyone "unlimited rights in regards to owning and using them".

We're doing lots of things nowadays which are not defined in the Constitution, but which become necessary once a nation

a) changes over to a modern technological society and
b) wants (or is forced to be) a world leader..

That's what I asked!!!! Who in hell decided we are to be a World leader????

To give an analogy: there is no law which says parents have to set a good example for their children. Yet everyone wants parents to do so. Everyone complains loudly when parents fail to do so.

Who is everyone???

Whether we like it or not, we're sort of a parent or older sibling (I hated to say "big brother") to the world.

Says who?????????????

In return for helping out folks, we want/expect the world to sell us unlimited amounts of cheap natural resources - something they're not obligated to do at all.

So why do we owe them anything?

Our "pal" the Shah of Iran started the whole oil price rise/embargo in 1973, right after the Yom Kippur war. Our good old buddy, the Shah.

The Shaw said we needed to replace the jet fighters he lost. Carter said no, we're not giving you jets, buy your own. So the Shaw, in order to afford new jets, raised the money the only way he could....oil. His oil, that's his right.

Now, we could easily go back to being an isolationist country. We tried this during the 1920s and got World War 2 partially as a result. We tried it during the period from Jan 20 2001 to about 8:50 AM Sep 11 2001 and gee, that didn't work out too well, either, last I checked. With so many dependencies on foreign resources, we're stuck with being

Military bases and spies, all over the World, is hardly isolationist.

As for the technology, yeah, I guess the jobs will eventually get offshored, but it would sure be nice to at least *try* to bring some manufacturing back into the country. Or at least own some patents for the technology. And there are jobs that would need to stay in the USA - such as washing solar panels, maintaining windmills, and so forth, which would be no doubt undercut by cheap foreign and/or illegal immigrant labor. But at least tens of billions of dollars would not be going overseas to hostile regimes, and we'd cut environmental damage costs which add up in quiet, hidden ways. We forget that $3,000 of a new car is for the platinum in the catalytic converter, for example.

Patents aren't worth a tinkers damn in the third world. Those tens of billions are at least bringing something useful, unlike the tens of billions in foreign aid or tens of billions walmart is exporting.
I've got two, brand new in the box, catalytic converters I bought retail for less than $100 each.

Or we can go down the tubes. It's our choice. This country is no longer really willing to pledge its lives or its fortunes to defend itselfand its interests; when those are gone, the "sacred honor" is a meaningless phrase, a bag of hot air. I want this country to rise to the occasion, to save itself while it still has time, to show it can still work and sacrifice to keep its most precious resources - its independence and freedom. To show the world how it's done, and why the restof the world ought to respedt us. And hey, let's make money while we're at it - I got no problem with that. But there are days where I think I'm the only one left who feels we should sacrifice, or work, or do any-damn-thing, to save ourselves.

Good for you, but what you want is not necessarily a consensus nor is it our government's policy. Just because you feel something is the right thing to do doesn't make it others peoples reality.

For the record, I agree with much of what you said and stand for. I do what I can as far as buying American, avoiding evil walmart, etc. Buy I also realize I (we) are in the minority and powerless to change the course of the ship of state, or the minds of the me first, majority.

[CaliforniaMama]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

I also realize I (we) are in the minority and powerless to change the course of the ship of state, or the minds of the me first, majority.

I continually vascillate between these feelings of powerlessness and the righteous feeling that we should at least try.

But then, where do we start? How do we change the perspective of society, of government and of the world?

But then, if we got everyone to sit up and care we would have huge arguments about how to go about fixing things and then what?

I think I need another dose of oblivion.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by CaliforniaMama

But then, where do we start?

Think globally, act locally. Get the local politicians on board or replaced. Then, if they rise through the ranks, make sure they retain the same principles. Ride herd, babysit, cheerlead, let them know they can depend on their power base without large corporate donations, so they don't get corrupted. Oh, and if they do....dump 'em and bring up the reserve candidate.

If enough people do this, these politicians will eventually become the majority.

[Wombat]

I heard on the news that this particular pipeline was buried. Some organised thieves dug down and holed it during the night, and made off with a lot of fuel. Unfortunately they just left it leaking. The next day locals discovered the leak and crowded in to get some for themselves...

[Explicit]

Omg thats friggen sad.

[footfootfoot]

Originally Posted by Explicit

Omg thats friggen sad.

now that you've made your obligatory seven posts, feel free to post your spam. Oh, and welcome to the cellar!