What do you hear when people say freedom?

[Aliantha]

And very few people ever believe they have nothing left. Most of us are constrained by some ties whether they be emotional, physical or financial.

[TheMercenary]

He gets it right becuase it pisses off liberals.


Courtesy of the Red, White, & Blue (The Angry American)
Toby Keith

American girls and American guys will always stand up and salute;
Will always recognize
When we see ol' glory flying,
There's a lot of men dead,
So we can sleep in peace at night when we lay down our head.

My daddy served in the army,
Where he lost his right eye.
But he flew a flag out in our yard 'til the day that he died.
He wanted my mother, my brother, my sister and me
To grow up and live happy in the land of the free.

Now this nation that I love has fallen under attack.
A mighty sucker punch came flying in from somewhere in the back.
Soon as we could see clearly through our big black eye,
Man we lit up your world like the Fourth of July.

Hey Uncle Sam put your name at the top of his list,
And the Statue of Liberty started shaking her fist.
And the eagle will fly,
And there's gonna be Hell,
When you hear Mother Freedom start ringing her bell!
It's gonna feel like the whole wide world is raining down on you...
Brought to you courtesy of the Red, White and Blue!

Oh, Justice will be served and the battle will rage.
This big dog will fight when you rattle his cage
You'll be sorry that you messed with the US of A
'Cuz we'll put a boot in your ass
It's the American way.

Hey Uncle Sam put your name at the top of his list,
And the Statue of Liberty started shaking her fist.
And the eagle will fly,
And there's gonna be Hell,
When you hear Mother Freedom start ringing her bell!
And it'll feel like the whole wide world is raining down on you...
Brought to you courtesy of the Red, White and Blue!

Of the Red, White and Blue..
Of my Red, White and Blue...

[Trilby]

I hear Mel Gibson.

[piercehawkeye45]

I think I agree.

Absolute freedom is impossible to accomplish.

If we are free to do whatever we want we will then take away other people's freedoms. If we make sure no one can take away anyone else's freedom, we can not do whatever we want. To me, freedom is the subjective equilibrium between the two.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

No, freedom is having no levels of obligation, and that's only possible when you have no stuff and no relationships... ie nothing left to lose. See?

Originally Posted by JPB

Your freedom doesn't sound very free to me.
A free person is not allowed to relate to anything?

That's not my definition, that's my explanation of Janis Joplin's definition.
My definition is back in post 22.

[DanaC]

what we each have is far more powerful and real than 'freedom' or 'free will': we have agency, or, the capacity to choose

Nice definition. I like that.

[henry quirk]

thanks...

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by henry quirk

'Not free of, free to'

i don't see the distinction

to be 'free to' means one is 'free of <restraint>'

Free of restraint, yes, but not free of other people (and possibly their choices and behaviors.) If your neighbor is religious you do not have the right to be free of any exposure to him in public places, for example, but you are free to go back inside your house.

[henry quirk]

in the first post of the thread: griff talks a bit about 'free' and 'freedom'...he muses on the semantic difficulties of the words and hints at -- i think -- the philosophical foundation of the concept

my posts have been in the same vein: attempting to pin down 'freedom', illustrate it has no real foundation (is fiction), and lobbying for the very real alternative, agency

certainly: one is 'free'to go back into his or her house but, superficially, this is only a poor way of saying one 'goes in' the house...first and foremost: 'going in' is an action extending from a choice, which of course, is what agency is all about

'going in' is no more an expression of 'freedom' than is 'freedom of speech' (a privilege and fiction, not a right or reality)

by the way: agency as reality takes into account 'other people' and their choices...as i posted up-thread, 'each of us is bound up in, and by, 'the world' (both within and without)', and, 'and we each are restrained: by our own flesh (the way reality works) at the least; by the esoterica of the culture (all the fictions foisted up on us) at the most'

'the world' is full of 'other people' and 'other people' are the source of 'culture'

[henry quirk]

another way to look at it: there is political 'freedom' or liberty, which may be what most posting in this thread are commenting on

'liberty' is a nice way of saying: the community, the gov, the king, etc. will not screw with you...as such, it's fiction and privilege

anything codified and secured for you by another is privilege

in fact, all the rights most folks are accustomed to crowing about are just that: privileges

agency, however, is integral to the individual...it can't be taken away except by killing the individual...agency is not dependent on who sits in power or on how that power is exercised

fundamentally: agency is, again, about self-possession in even in the midst of imprisonment

and as i think on it: even death doesn't take away agency, it merely ends it (agency/agent)

[DanaC]

Have to bear in mind though, that there are different kinds of agency. Political (or historical) agency is not always open to everyone. Power often rests in political agency as does the ability or opportunity to change the structures of society. Those with political agency build the walls in which we live; those without political agency rarely get to design the world, and so the world is not often slanted in their favour.

[classicman]

That also depends upon which type of society you live in.

[TheMercenary]

Oh you are going to be popular around here.

[Perry Winkle]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

Oh you are going to be popular around here.

TW, without the capital letters.

[Shawnee123]

But that isn't really success, now is it?