3/4/2004: Ashoura 2004

[Shattered Soul]

Oh, and btw, TS, you have once again ceased communications on something I have asked you to explain. This is getting to be a trend, it appears.

Of course, you probably feel that you don't need to explain yourself...but if there's one thing I've seen here, it's this: if you don't want to have to explain yourself, don't post an opinion.

[lumberjim]

did you two have a spat somewhere else that i missed?

troubleshooter has a right to his own opinion, as do you. you seem to be taking his opinion rather personally, imo, though. what gives?

[Troubleshooter]

Originally posted by Shattered Soul
You're contradicting yourself here...if it's unproven it's NOT religion, it's art? Huh?

A poor explanation on my part I guess. I was trying to say that if your religion is an expression of how you feel that the universe was created and how you think your creator thinks it needs to be run that is fine, but I am not going to let your artistic endeavor interfere with, or end, my life.

Originally posted by Shattered Soul

It's a looking beyond oneself and, possibly, considering that there may be a first cause and that that first cause may be conscious.

I look beyond myself all of the time, my interest in sociology and philosophy is an extension of that. Philosophy requires some reason to your thinking though.

That being said, if your reason for all of the flubdubbery is a desire for something more ephemeral or more powerful then you more power to you, but there is yet to be shown any form of first cause. Not even the big bang.

Originally posted by Shattered Soul

If you create life in a test tube, and then put it out in the environment, but that life never, EVER sees evidence of your existence, and yet somehow begins believing that some sort of consciousness created it, does it make you any less real because they have no concrete PROOF that you exist?

No it doesn't, but it doesn't make their belief reasonable. Without evidence or proof, it's fiction.

Originally posted by Shattered Soul

"And I'm not going to kill you for not changing your mind about my beliefs either."
------------

What's that in re to?

To borrow wisdom from Sensei Carlin:
"Millions of dead motherfuckers all because they gave the wrong answer to the god question.

You believe in God?

No.

*doomph*

You believe in God?

Yes.

You believe in my God?

No.

*doomph*

MIllions of dead motherfuckers..."

[Troubleshooter]

Originally posted by OnyxCougar
Being the lazy ass that I am, (and not wanting to surf the muslim/porn central link from work), can anyone find the reason why they feel they have to cut themselves to celebrate?

Is it in a holy book or something?

Thou shalt cut thyself on the head and thy children, yea, even the little child shall be cut. When the blood stoppeth the flow, verily, take thy knife and smack the cut repeatedly while wearing white. Behold! The media shall frenzy!

They're celebrating the martyrdom of Mohammad's (sp) grandson.

[Shattered Soul]

Originally posted by lumberjim
did you two have a spat somewhere else that i missed?

troubleshooter has a right to his own opinion, as do you. you seem to be taking his opinion rather personally, imo, though. what gives?

Oh, no...no spat. He's just got an extreme world-view going on, and it brings out my inner Devil's Advocate. I've got nothing against him at all. I even think he's got good points at times.

[Shattered Soul]

TS:


Well there you go. MY point was that you were making a sweeping accusation of silliness and stupidity of all those who DO believe in something that you do not believe in. Merely because you do not believe in it and cannot prove it does not make it silly or false.

And DO you look beyond yourself, really? Studying philosophy and sociology don't mean that you look beyond yourself, it just means that you read the works of people who looked beyond THEMSELVES (philosophy), and sociology is just a way to learn the trends of how people act in what situations, all the better to manipulate them. Companies use Soc all the time. It's a basis of advertising.

[jinx]

Originally posted by OnyxCougar
Being the lazy ass that I am, (and not wanting to surf the muslim/porn central link from work), can anyone find the reason why they feel they have to cut themselves to celebrate?

Is it in a holy book or something?

Thou shalt cut thyself on the head and thy children, yea, even the little child shall be cut. When the blood stoppeth the flow, verily, take thy knife and smack the cut repeatedly while wearing white. Behold! The media shall frenzy!

From CNN

[Troubleshooter]

Originally posted by Shattered Soul
"So the only measure of worth of an activity is usefulness? That seems incredibly narrow, and would result in a rather boring life in my opinion, if we only did those things we felt were "useful". .."

Yes. But to qualify that, if the usefulness is pleasure then it is useful.

And why does everyone say that boring is bad? In time boring becomes the norm and is no longer boring. We see it every day, but in reverse. Clothing, language, thought, all becoming more coarse every day. Why can't we reverse the trend towards higher standards?

Originally posted by Shattered Soul

Right on, Zenchou. That, I think, is what TS doesn't understand. "Useful" to him, it appears, is what he himself deems so. Anything else is a waste of time, again, because he believes it to be so.

My standards are based on a desire for improvement and simplicty that is derived from the greatest thinkers if time, Kant, Plato, Epictetus, Epicurus, Hobbs, Socrates, and so on.

If I have one belief in this world it is that only humanity can save humanity.

People are migratind towards a degree of complex shallowness and venality that is truly staggering.

[OnyxCougar]

Perh aps I didn't phrase my question correctly. I understand they are celebrating a holy day, I understand it's for Imam. Why are they hitting themselves in the head with knives? Why not...go fuck a cow? Why are they celebrating it in this particular manner. The CNN article doesn't answer that.

[Troubleshooter]

Originally posted by OnyxCougar
Perh aps I didn't phrase my question correctly. I understand they are celebrating a holy day, I understand it's for Imam. Why are they hitting themselves in the head with knives? Why not...go fuck a cow? Why are they celebrating it in this particular manner. The CNN article doesn't answer that.

Ah, gotcha.

I'm not sure. Maybe I can find a Muslim on campus and ask.

Blood, pain, tithing, flagellation, asceticism, abstinance *shudder*; various forms of abuse or self-denial are central to some (most?) religions.

[jinx]

Originally posted by OnyxCougar
Perh aps I didn't phrase my question correctly. I understand they are celebrating a holy day, I understand it's for Imam. Why are they hitting themselves in the head with knives? Why not...go fuck a cow? Why are they celebrating it in this particular manner. The CNN article doesn't answer that.

"In the past, many Shia men have demonstrated their devotion to Husayn by letting their blood flow freely from self-inflicted wounds. Today, however, many governments have tried to ban this practice, with varying degrees of success. In Lebanon, the practice is permitted, and a bloody commemoration of Ashoura takes place in Nabatieh every year."

Apparently the head wound is not the only thing they do. The CNN article says;

"Shortly after the explosions, pilgrims returned to the Imam Hussein mosque: chanting, beating their breasts in penance, cutting themselves with daggers or swords and whipping themselves in synchronized moves."

I would imagine the head wound is common (and done to the kids) because, as UT pointed out in the orginal post, you get more bang for your buck in the blood:suffering ratio.

[bjlhct]

Their holy guy got killed for his views. It's kinda like those people that hang themselves on crosses - old IOD pic anyone? - but less painful.

Please stop the argument. It is going nowhere.

[Lady Sidhe]

(TS in quotes)

"... to qualify that, if the usefulness is pleasure then it is useful."


Yes, I can vouch for the fact that he thinks that if it's pleasurable for him, it is therefore useful, and therefore OK, no matter what it is.



"And why does everyone say that boring is bad?....Why can't we reverse the trend towards higher standards?"


I've been asking you that for a year, and haven't gotten an answer yet.


quote:Originally posted by Shattered Soul

Right on, Zenchou. That, I think, is what TS doesn't understand. "Useful" to him, it appears, is what he himself deems so. Anything else is a waste of time, again, because he believes it to be so.


That's true.



"My standards are based on a desire for improvement and simplicty that is derived from the greatest thinkers if time, Kant, Plato, Epictetus, Epicurus, Hobbs, Socrates, and so on."



Many of those also had very unemotional views of life. I can see why they drew your attention. However, lack of emotion is a flaw, as we can see by observing serial killers, other sociopaths, and some other personality disorders. Without emotion, and the resulting empathy, people don't care about anyone but themselves. In other words, if it's pleasurable to them, it serves a valid purpose, no matter how it affects other people. That isn't an improvement.



"If I have one belief in this world it is that only humanity can save humanity."


Humanity is made up of individual people, and if individual people don't care about anyone except themselves, and view things that cause them pleasure as being ok despite how it affects other people, humanity will keep going downhill. Without emotion, things like family, marriage, and the like, the things that knit society together, cannot be sustained.



"People are migratind towards a degree of complex shallowness and venality that is truly staggering."


I'm not even going to comment on the audacity of you making that statement.

Sidhe

[Skunks]

- The website cited earlier (twin-towers.net/muslims.htm) is bullshit propaganda. It takes a small handful of photos of things which exist in a completely accepted form in American society (children with toy guns pretending to kill each other or inanimate objects, e.g.) and comes to the conclusions that A) those photos are representative of every, or even a majority, of the members of a religion with over a billion (their own statistic) followers and B) that all of those people want to kill Americans. I seriously have to question the source of their translations.

It's this sort of fucked up misrepresentation of other cultures that leads to terrorism; you take a few provocative images, add some subtitles that tell you they're going to kill you for what you/they believe, and bam. Somebody's blowing somebody else up. Except, it's terrorism when the other guy does it.

Vicious cycle.

- Circumcision is a part of Islam. Same origin as in Judaism and Christianity: covenant between Abraham and God.

- Husayn, the younger son of Ali and Fatima, the Prophet Muhammad's daughter by his first wife, was killed by a the present Umayyid caliph circa October 680.

This event marked the split between the Shi'ite (literally, the "party of Ali", or something to that effect) Muslims and the Sunni muslims/Umayyid caliphate. There had been some disagreements before, because Ali got shafted out of being Caliph for a while. But once they killed the grandson of the Prophet, there wasn't any way to really reconcile things: the Umayyids were no longer just questionably okay, and instead were considered by Shi'ites to be a bunch of non-Muslims leading the rest of the Muslims.

[lumberjim]

whoa.

sidhe,

what the..?

trying to compete with staceyv? you saw how much fun it has been for her, i presume. You sure you want to bring this online?