John Titor - Page 4

glatt · 06-25-2004, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jaguar
If there was a fairly obvious election grab, you'd see a fair portion of the concervatives up in arms as well, not to mention radar's people on the warpath.

I agree that Radar's people would be on the warpath.

I disagree that if conservatives grabbed power through a blatently fraudulent election, there would be a violent uprising by conservatives. That's nuts.

jaguar · 06-25-2004, 02:34 PM

There are a fair portion who are deeply alienated by bush's position, combined iwth other actions an election grab would b enough to start something, it only needs to be started, as it's clamped down on it'll grow, from there it's close to unstoppable.

I'm not saying any of this would happen, I just enjoying gaming scenarios out, it's something I do almost every day.

Undertoad · 06-25-2004, 02:42 PM

Radar's people are permanently on the warpath. It would be amazing to see something take them off it.

jaguar · 06-25-2004, 03:27 PM

The milita movement has shrunk back in recent years though, post-oklahoma increased pressure had it's effect, in this kind of scenario you'd steady growth.

glatt · 06-25-2004, 03:39 PM

I think the militia movement was a reaction to having Clinton in the White House. Now that there is a comrade in the White House, the fine folks in the militias feel no need to hole up with their guns.

jaguar · 06-25-2004, 04:05 PM

I don't know enough to answer that question but it's amazing how quickly situations can change and balances of power and swing to and fro. I remember on 9/11 I woke up and got told that someone had launched an attack on the US, my first that was 'what? noone would be THAT stupid'.

Radar · 06-25-2004, 04:07 PM

The blatant violations of the Constitution, the war in Iraq, the highly questionable means in which Bush took office, the attacks on our civil rights, etc. already have people of all types whether conservative or liberal or somewhere between upset, edgy and on high alert. Blatantly rigging another election, might be the catalyst required to get people off thier asses to start a revolution including myself.

Someone keeps saying liberals don't own guns and that's not true. I'm not a liberal or a conservative and I own and know how to use guns and so do many people who are liberals.

It might only get a few off thier asses, and when the rest of America sees them slaughtered by the government for exercising their rights, it might inspire them to join the cause. Waco & Ruby Ridge were small, this would be very big and get a lot of attention. It may take a few years to get organized enough and to get enough people educated and armed enough to make a serious and viable revolution but it all starts with one event.

The situation the author provided is very plausable. In fact it's more than plausable. Given what's been happening in America, I believe it's probable.

jaguar · 06-25-2004, 04:17 PM

While I won't comment on the likelyhood, I agree with radar's scenario. The difference is more how things are carried out, a more likely scanario is increased civil disobedience met with increased force, leading to an escalation that draws people in as the reaction becomes more draconian.

glatt · 06-25-2004, 04:28 PM

I think both of you are wrong.

You talk to like-minded people on the internet enough, and you get a skewed perception of reality.

The overwhelming majority of people just don't care. They see a couple hundred soldiers dying in a war, and they are sorry about it, but it's not a big deal. They see some rights on paper being taken away, but it isn't changing their daily life. Only the Arabs are being thrown in jail. Joe average is seeing no change. The only change Joe average is seeing is gas prices are going up. That's all he cares about. It's not enough for him to pick up a gun.

If the election is rigged again, it will bother him, but not to the point of getting a gun.

Of course, if I'm wrong, Bush steals the election, and people freak out about it - isn't the ban on machine guns in the US set to expire soon? If Joe average is mad as hell and doesn't want to take it anymore, and machine guns are legal again, that could be interesting.

jaguar · 06-25-2004, 04:33 PM

This is not a topic I'm usualyl talking about on the internet, I do however do a lot of wargaming style scenario planning on a very regular basis as part of my work, as I said, I'm not saying these scanarios are likely, only possible given the right input. I think you're thinking too narrowly, you need to expand things out, make them more gradual, from the perspective it's more likely. It's not uncommon for things to simmer for a long time before they explode.

Even if the election is rigged I don't expect there to be firefights in the streets of Boston or NYC anytime soon.

Griff · 06-25-2004, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jaguar
The milita movement has shrunk back in recent years though, post-oklahoma increased pressure had it's effect, in this kind of scenario you'd steady growth.

We touched on this in class last night. The discussion was about racist hate groups. They were saying that McVeigh wasn't accepted by the militia folks, he was just a good old fashioned white sepratist. Either way I'd say that's what sent the militias underground. The fear of government didn't do it, it was the fear that they'd thrown in with the wrong kind of people.

As far as leftists with guns go, the original Black Panther Party along with a bunch of your sixties radicals were armed. The new Black Panthers are armed but look a lot more like Nazis... The left in the US is too in love with state power to take up arms, they'd rather harness the beast for their own purposes. Of course, it is cocktail hour in Grifftopia so I may have to retract chunks of this in the morning.

xoxoxoBruce · 06-25-2004, 05:14 PM

Quote:

It may take a few years to get organized enough and to get enough people educated and armed enough to make a serious and viable revolution but it all starts with one event.

If you're not armed when it starts, you won't be. That's the first thing they'll do, is cut off guns and ammo.

Quote:

isn't the ban on machine guns in the US set to expire soon? If Joe average is mad as hell and doesn't want to take it anymore, and machine guns are legal again, that could be interesting.

No, it's assault rifles your thinking of. Machine guns have been withheld from the general public, forever.

wolf · 06-26-2004, 12:16 AM

"Forever" in this case being "since 1938."

and "assault rifles" in this context means "single fire, semi-automatic rifles made out of scary-looking black plastic."

glatt · 06-28-2004, 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by wolf
"Forever" in this case being "since 1938."

and "assault rifles" in this context means "single fire, semi-automatic rifles made out of scary-looking black plastic."

OK. I'm not really interested in opening up a huge can of worms and starting a gun thread, but...

What's the difference between the assault rifles that were banned and are about to be legal again, and the rifle used by the DC sniper? The DC sniper, if I recall correctly, used a Bushmaster semi-automatic rifle. It looks like an M-16 to my untrained eyes. I would consider it an assault rifle.

I know the assault weapon ban had something to do with the size of clips, but did it also have some sort of rate-of-fire wording too? You mention plastic, I guess that had something to do with it too.

russotto · 06-28-2004, 08:49 AM

The "assault weapon" ban (which will probably be renewed in lame duck session, the bastards) covered magazines which held more than 10 rounds of storage, and semi-automatic rifles with detachable magazines which had at least two or more "ugly" features -- a folding stock was one, a bayonet lug (?!) was another, there were more. It also banned certain guns by name.

06-25-2004, 02:34 PM	#47
jaguar whig Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 5,075	There are a fair portion who are deeply alienated by bush's position, combined iwth other actions an election grab would b enough to start something, it only needs to be started, as it's clamped down on it'll grow, from there it's close to unstoppable. I'm not saying any of this would happen, I just enjoying gaming scenarios out, it's something I do almost every day. __________________ Good friends, good books and a sleepy conscience: this is the ideal life. - Twain

06-25-2004, 03:27 PM	#49
jaguar whig Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 5,075	The milita movement has shrunk back in recent years though, post-oklahoma increased pressure had it's effect, in this kind of scenario you'd steady growth. __________________ Good friends, good books and a sleepy conscience: this is the ideal life. - Twain

06-25-2004, 04:05 PM	#51
jaguar whig Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 5,075	I don't know enough to answer that question but it's amazing how quickly situations can change and balances of power and swing to and fro. I remember on 9/11 I woke up and got told that someone had launched an attack on the US, my first that was 'what? noone would be THAT stupid'. __________________ Good friends, good books and a sleepy conscience: this is the ideal life. - Twain

06-25-2004, 04:07 PM	#52
Radar Constitutional Scholar Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Ocala, FL Posts: 4,006	The blatant violations of the Constitution, the war in Iraq, the highly questionable means in which Bush took office, the attacks on our civil rights, etc. already have people of all types whether conservative or liberal or somewhere between upset, edgy and on high alert. Blatantly rigging another election, might be the catalyst required to get people off thier asses to start a revolution including myself. Someone keeps saying liberals don't own guns and that's not true. I'm not a liberal or a conservative and I own and know how to use guns and so do many people who are liberals. It might only get a few off thier asses, and when the rest of America sees them slaughtered by the government for exercising their rights, it might inspire them to join the cause. Waco & Ruby Ridge were small, this would be very big and get a lot of attention. It may take a few years to get organized enough and to get enough people educated and armed enough to make a serious and viable revolution but it all starts with one event. The situation the author provided is very plausable. In fact it's more than plausable. Given what's been happening in America, I believe it's probable. __________________ "I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death." - George Carlin

06-25-2004, 04:17 PM	#53
jaguar whig Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 5,075	While I won't comment on the likelyhood, I agree with radar's scenario. The difference is more how things are carried out, a more likely scanario is increased civil disobedience met with increased force, leading to an escalation that draws people in as the reaction becomes more draconian. __________________ Good friends, good books and a sleepy conscience: this is the ideal life. - Twain

06-25-2004, 02:42 PM	#48
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	Radar's people are permanently on the warpath. It would be amazing to see something take them off it.

06-25-2004, 03:39 PM	#50
glatt ™ Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Arlington, VA Posts: 27,717	I think the militia movement was a reaction to having Clinton in the White House. Now that there is a comrade in the White House, the fine folks in the militias feel no need to hole up with their guns.

06-25-2004, 04:28 PM	#54
glatt ™ Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Arlington, VA Posts: 27,717	I think both of you are wrong. You talk to like-minded people on the internet enough, and you get a skewed perception of reality. The overwhelming majority of people just don't care. They see a couple hundred soldiers dying in a war, and they are sorry about it, but it's not a big deal. They see some rights on paper being taken away, but it isn't changing their daily life. Only the Arabs are being thrown in jail. Joe average is seeing no change. The only change Joe average is seeing is gas prices are going up. That's all he cares about. It's not enough for him to pick up a gun. If the election is rigged again, it will bother him, but not to the point of getting a gun. Of course, if I'm wrong, Bush steals the election, and people freak out about it - isn't the ban on machine guns in the US set to expire soon? If Joe average is mad as hell and doesn't want to take it anymore, and machine guns are legal again, that could be interesting.

06-25-2004, 04:33 PM	#55
jaguar whig Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 5,075	This is not a topic I'm usualyl talking about on the internet, I do however do a lot of wargaming style scenario planning on a very regular basis as part of my work, as I said, I'm not saying these scanarios are likely, only possible given the right input. I think you're thinking too narrowly, you need to expand things out, make them more gradual, from the perspective it's more likely. It's not uncommon for things to simmer for a long time before they explode. Even if the election is rigged I don't expect there to be firefights in the streets of Boston or NYC anytime soon. __________________ Good friends, good books and a sleepy conscience: this is the ideal life. - Twain

06-26-2004, 12:16 AM	#58
wolf lobber of scimitars Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Phila Burbs Posts: 20,774	"Forever" in this case being "since 1938." and "assault rifles" in this context means "single fire, semi-automatic rifles made out of scary-looking black plastic." __________________ wolf eht htiw og "Conspiracies are the norm, not the exception." --G. Edward Griffin The Creature from Jekyll Island High Priestess of the Church of the Whale Penis

06-28-2004, 08:49 AM	#60
russotto Professor Join Date: Jan 2001 Posts: 1,788	The "assault weapon" ban (which will probably be renewed in lame duck session, the bastards) covered magazines which held more than 10 rounds of storage, and semi-automatic rifles with detachable magazines which had at least two or more "ugly" features -- a folding stock was one, a bayonet lug (?!) was another, there were more. It also banned certain guns by name.

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