Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy

[Lady Sidhe]

Originally Posted by lookout123

why is that wrong? does a belief in santa or the easter bunny injure the child in any way? children enjoy the mystery surrounding thesekind hearted souls who only come when they are sleeping, and i enjoy seeing the wonder in my son's eyes during those holidays.

i don't judge you for not participating, but i do ask why? where is the harm?

edit: there is plenty of time in their adult lives for cynicism and skepticism. childhood is for pure enjoyment.

I agree. Kids like this kind of stuff, and there's no reason that they shouldn't believe in them as long as possible. Santa, the Tooth Fairy, and the Easter Bunny ARE real....they just happen to work through parents--so technically, there is no lie involved. I plan to take up the mantles of all three when Ash is old enough to care.


Sidhe

[perth]

Originally Posted by Lady Sidhe

Santa, the Tooth Fairy, and the Easter Bunny ARE real....they just happen to work through parents--so technically, there is no lie involved.

Um. What? They aren't real. They're fictional characters. The only one that you could even begin to make the case for is Santa Claus, but even then the best you can claim is that he's based (loosely) on a historical figure.

Somewhere along the line they're going to figure out that there is no fat man living at the North Pole who delivers presents once a year. And when they do, you can try to spin it like that. And maybe they'll buy it. More power to you. I can't say I've ever met anyone who was "fucked up" by their parents telling them or at least letting them believe that there was a Santa Claus. My feeling is that telling my son that the gifts under the tree are from Santa is a big, gigantic, humungous lie. And I won't do that.

[Brigliadore]

Originally Posted by glatt

I remember being disillusioned when I figured out Santa wasn't real. I had friends who beleived in Santa long after other kids had figured it out, and had even told them. Their parents went to absurd lengths to keep the fantasy alive. That's just wrong.

Coming in late to this thread. Sorry. The above is exactly what my dad and step mom did to my little sister. She asked them point blank if Santa was real a number of times and they said yes. She got teased at school because she insisted that Santa was real and every time she came home crying they would insist the children at school were wrong. They even had some book serious they were reading to her at the time and one of the books dealt with finding out Santa wasn't real. I shit you not my step mom skipped over huge sections of the book just so my sister wouldn't find out. Their reason was they didn't want to ruin the fantasy for her. I am sorry but if she is getting teased at school over it, all you are doing is creating distrust and resentment in her when she finds out that all that teasing was based on a lie you didn't want to fess up to. I remember them threatening me with grounding that year if I told her otherwise should she ask. It put me in a shitty position because I didn't want to lie to her, but I knew if I didn't I would get punished and they would just tell her I was lying to her to be mean. I think after watching that crap first hand I would be more apt to not lie to my kids, but then again we don't have any yet so I cant really say for sure.

[Lady Sidhe]

See, now that's just wrong. I would never insist to my child that these beings were real if she straight-out asked me. I'd tell her the story behind them, and explain that we carry on the tradition. Hell, TS still gets presents from Santa. Once one learns they're not "real," it doesn't make it any less fun to participate in the illusion, IMO.




Sidhe

[perth]

Admittedly, I've only got 3 Christmases and Easters under my belt with my son, so my experience is limited. But I can't really imagine how thinking that the presents were dropped down the chimney by an elf with a gland problem or that the eggs were hidden by a monstrous rabbit would add to the fun. The kid already gets spoiled rotten on these days with more toys than he could play with in a year and more candy than a grown adult should be able to manage. I just don't understand where along the line someone decided we, as adults, should treat a make-believe character as honest-to-goodness fact. It doesn't add to the fantasy any more than if I actually believed Gandalf and Frodo and all those other guys actually took an actual evil ring to an actual Mount Doom and threw it in (apologies to anyone who believed that was real).

So. My kid has books about Santa Claus, and even books about the Easter Bunny. It's not like I'm denying him the fantasy, because I'm not. But it's deception to treat Santa as anything more than a fantasy.

And I've been thinking about it. There are certain things I will never bring up with my son, and if asked about it, I will lie. This situation is pretty much exclusively reserved for questions regarding my and Case's divorce. There are things he *never* needs to know, and will only prove to be detrimental to him to know. But there is NO REASON WHATSOEVER to tell your child a make-believe character exists in the real world.

[Lady Sidhe]

Ok, is it just me (probably is), but is this being taken a little too seriously? Santa, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy are NOT the kinds of things that will fuck up your kid if you enjoy the holidays with any of the three. It's not like telling your kid they're yours if they're really adopted, or anything major. It's all in good fun. Kids like to play make-believe--being able to play make-believe, as a matter of fact, is an essential part of a child's mental and emotional development.

I'm not understanding the hoohah over it.


Sidhe

[Clodfobble]

There's no hoohah over enhancing the holidays with traditional fantasy stories. The problem comes when parents go to extreme lengths to continue the lie long after the children are old enough to be let in on the secret.

Make-believe only works as a developmental tool when the children know it's make-believe. Otherwise it confuses them. If you tell your child that she's a real, honest-to-goodness princess, and keep the story going for years on end, it will be crushing to her when she finally figures out she's just an average kid, and she can't afford her own stable of horses, and she can't have servants do all her chores. But if she knows she's a normal person and that it's a game to pretend to be a princess, she will enjoy it.

I personally think it's just as damaging to constantly remind the child that there is no Santa Claus and not allow them to relish the games. As long as they know it's all in fun, there's no harm.

[perth]

Originally Posted by Lady Sidhe

It's not like telling your kid they're yours if they're really adopted, or anything major.

Hey, I did find out I was adopted, when I was 15. And you know what? Finding out there wasn't a Santa Claus at 7 years old was far more traumatic than discovering the guy I had always called dad wasn't mine biologically. Know why? Because after I found out, I still had a dad.

Yeah, maybe I do take it a bit too seriously. And I apologise if my vehemence seems like venom, that's not my intent (reading back it kind of looks like I was attacking Sidhe, I didn't mean to). But I was lied to a lot as a kid, as I'm sure many others were. I already know for a fact that one day I'm going to end up lying to my son about certain things. So the best I can do is minimise that as much as possible.

Make-believe only works as a developmental tool when the children know it's make-believe. Otherwise it confuses them. If you tell your child that she's a real, honest-to-goodness princess, and keep the story going for years on end, it will be crushing to her when she finally figures out she's just an average kid, and she can't afford her own stable of horses, and she can't have servants do all her chores. But if she knows she's a normal person and that it's a game to pretend to be a princess, she will enjoy it.

I personally think it's just as damaging to constantly remind the child that there is no Santa Claus and not allow them to relish the games. As long as they know it's all in fun, there's no harm.

Clodfobble, I agree. You expressed it far better than I ever could have.

[Undertoad]

Katkeeper didn't maintain any such lies as far back as I can remember, and at one point said that she regretted it as it left me with no imagination. I disregarded her comment as blankly irrelevant and went about my automatonic day.

[perth]

I dunno, I think a strong case can be made for your abundance of imagination based solely on the nick "Undertoad". I found it to be particularly clever when I first arrived.

[Troubleshooter]

I see no reason to encourage adults, much less children, in such things as the fiscally driven holidays.

The tooth fairy is a self-solving problem, hopefully.

Imaginary friends are inexpensive and can last a lifetime if really necessary.

I'm going to do my best to discourage Little Sidhe from non-secular holidays for the same reason I'm going to discourage her from religion in the first place. I'm also going to discourage her from any secular holidays unless they are for people or ideas that are sound.

Lady Sidhe will of course vehemently oppose such a Scroogian attitude.

[Lady Sidhe]

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

I see no reason to encourage adults, much less children, in such things as the fiscally driven holidays.

The tooth fairy is a self-solving problem, hopefully.

Imaginary friends are inexpensive and can last a lifetime if really necessary.

I'm going to do my best to discourage Little Sidhe from non-secular holidays for the same reason I'm going to discourage her from religion in the first place. I'm also going to discourage her from any secular holidays unless they are for people or ideas that are sound.

Lady Sidhe will of course vehemently oppose such a Scroogian attitude.

Yup, you're right.

TS hates the holidays. Too much traffic, and everything's closed. Massive inconvenience. I can understand not liking the BS that goes along with the holidays, but the holidays themselves can be fun, especially if you have a child to vicariously enjoy them through.

As to religion, I think that the fact that I'm Pagan and TS is Agnostic will be good for her. It'll give her a good questioning attitude. I intend to raise her pagan, with all our groovy holidays, though.

And I wasn't feeling attacked...I can completely understand telling your kids the truth if they ask. But if they don't ask, why take the fun away? When my daughter asks if they're real, I'll explain to her where they come from. I won't lie to her. But I'm going to let her anticipate and have fun for as long as I can.

Bah, humbug n' stuff--

Sidhe

[perth]

So something interesting happened to me last night.

I've looked back through my comments in this thread, and I know the following will come off as hypocrisy, because it probably IS.

I took Jamey to the mall to find a nice outfit for his Christmas pictures. We happened to pass by Santa's little outpost, and Jamey went *nuts* over seeing Santa. I had never seen him that thrilled about anything, and what made it stranger is that I've made a point of not making "Santa" a big thing. He asked if he could tell Santa what he wanted, and I found I just didn't have it in me to say no. But more than that, I was excited at the chance to get pictures of him with Santa.

We got in the (mercifully short) line and when his turn arrived, he practically bolted to the guy in the suit, hopped up and started telling him what a good boy he was. He grinned from ear-to-ear for the picture, and talked about it for the rest of the evening.

So I really don't know how I feel about it anymore. I think a lot of factors are involved here, but I just don't find myself inclined to actively discourage belief in Santa anymore. That's not to say I'm going to encourage it, and when he asks me, I'm going to be honest about it. But the pure joy I saw in his face last night taught me something important. Sometimes what's called for is a little less "dad" and a little more "friend".

[Clodfobble]

There's no shame in changing your mind based on how it affects your child. That's not hypocrisy; it's adjusting your parenting to fit the child. If someday you are faced with another child who happens to be terrified of Santa, you will be able to actively reassure that child from the beginning that Santa isn't real, and it won't be hypocrisy then either. You can never know for sure what's best for each child until they get there.

[warch]

Its good to play with your kids. Santa is fun. He is play and make believe. He's hope and anticipation and suspense and delight. No wonder hes a popular dude. Go with it in the spirit of play. Dont use santa for serious blackmail, maybe only to get kids to bed on time.