Bush Tells Blacks, 'I'm Here to Ask for Your Vote'

[lookout123]

Originally Posted by ladysycamore

Oh those were real??? I thought only the NAAWP was. Interesting. No, I just think that they are "typical". *shrugs*

no actually the organizations i listed are not real... i had to change ONE word in each of them. can you guess which one?

and nobody has even attempted to answer how the real organizations aren't exclusivist and racist by their very definition. my whole point was that those agencies all exist and are perfectly acceptable because they are the Association of Black _________ but if you turn it around and create Association of White _________ it would be seen as racist and typical of racist society we live in. explain to me how the double standard is acceptable? mind you - i don't want organizations for white people i just think that organizations designed for one race are foolish and equally wrong, no matter which ethnic group is involved.

[Troubleshooter]

Originally Posted by ladysycamore

I just think that they are "typical". *shrugs*

Why?

How so?

[ladysycamore]

Originally Posted by lookout123

no actually the organizations i listed are not real... i had to change ONE word in each of them. can you guess which one?

and nobody has even attempted to answer how the real organizations aren't exclusivist and racist by their very definition.

And maybe you won't get an answer. At least, not from me, because honestly, I don't know. I don't think that the orgs are so horribly exclusivist and racist. What are they supposed to do? Just b/c you think they are "wrong" then suddenly they should just disband and no longer exist?

my whole point was that those agencies all exist and are perfectly acceptable because they are the Association of Black _________ but if you turn it around and create Association of White _________ it would be seen as racist and typical of racist society we live in. explain to me how the double standard is acceptable? mind you - i don't want organizations for white people i just think that organizations designed for one race are foolish and equally wrong, no matter which ethnic group is involved.

I don't have the answer you are looking for. All I know is that racism is still an issue that we must battle, and I can only go by what I've gone through, what some members of my family have gone through, and what some people are STILL going through even in 2004. However, I'm not going to sit here and discuss/debate/argue this point anymore since I don't have a lot of "backup", meaning other blacks to either support me or to backup any points that I make (but a major thanks to DanaC and richlevy and anyone else I might have missed).

[ladysycamore]

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

Why?

How so?

Never mind. I was just being catty really.


Intesting reading:

Age of Rage
Young extremists find new targets — and new recruits
By Bob Moser

http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intel...le.jsp?aid=468

Last July 4, a lesbian couple in Boston took their two children to an Independence Day celebration in a local park — and ran smack into a gang of teenagers who did not appreciate their presence.
After the teens allegedly taunted the family with anti-gay slurs and threats, 15-year-old Anita Santiago allegedly slugged 35-year-old Lisa Craig hard enough to knock her to the ground. According to police reports, Santiago and her fellow gang members then bashed Craig's head against the sidewalk and kicked the woman so brutally that her brain hemorrhaged and she needed more than 200 stitches.

A few hours later, in the blue-collar suburb of Farmingville, N.Y., a Mexican family was startled awake — just in time — by a fire that would tear through their home and reduce it to ashes in minutes. Five boys, ages 15 to 17, had decided to top off their July 4th festivities by torching the house with leftover firecrackers.

Asked why, one of the teens simply told police that "Mexicans live there" — as if that were reason enough.

Welcome to the harsh new world of young-adult hate. Like the stories, photos and profiles in this special section, the Independence Day incidents illustrate some major shifts in the ways American kids are learning to hate — and how they act it out.

The Poison Spreads
Hate among kids has probably never been more widespread — and it doesn't stop with racist graffiti, Confederate flag T-shirts, swastika tattoos and homophobic slurs in high-school hallways.

Studies by hate-crime experts like Jack Levin, director of Northeastern University's Brudnick Center and co-author of the new book, Why We Hate, show that incidents perpetrated by youngsters, which became more frequent from the mid-1980s to the early 1990s, "plummeted" during the Clinton years.

But since 9/11, the number of hate crimes by kids has risen sharply — and they appear to be more brutal than ever. "What we're seeing," says Eric Ward, a longtime observer of extremist youth who works at Chicago's Center for New Community, "is a more militant, street-fighter culture."

As both the Boston and Farmingville incidents show, the targets of this militance have multiplied — and so have the perpetrators. After 9 /11, a disproportionate number of the assaults on Muslim-Americans were committed by teenagers. The same appears true for attacks against sexual and gender minorities, Hispanics and the homeless.

And hate activity is no longer the province of white boys, though they're still the main offenders. Not only are more Hispanic and African-American kids getting involved in hate, but more girls as well.

Social ecologist Ronald Huff, a longtime student of both street and racist youth gangs, estimates that in many cities "anywhere from a third to 50% of gang members are girls."

In another demographic shift, the bulk of hate activity now bubbles up in the suburbs — among reasonably well-off youth.

"Twenty years ago, big cities were hotbeds of hate," says Levin. "But as more and more minority families have moved into suburban areas, the prevalence of hate attacks has also increased there — much of it perpetrated by kids."

Where the classic profile of a young hater in the 1980s was a blue-collar juvenile angered by economic displacement, the more typical picture now is a teenager "raised in a middle-class family in a place where almost everyone is a racial rubber-stamp of himself," Levin says.

"These kids aren't prepared for people who are different. They see them as a threat. They come home in the afternoon to their empty houses, log onto the Internet, visit hate sites, chat rooms, bulletin boards and get ideas. "

For kids who've grown up online, there's no longer a need to join large hate groups in order to get those ideas. Neo-Nazi outfits like the National Socialist Movement and Aryan Nations (see Youth Action Corps) still work hard to recruit youngsters into the fold, and concerts featuring adrenaline-fueled "hatecore" music continue to gain popularity and win converts.

But much of the racist activity among kids is springing up from the grassroots, with small groups like the Connecticut White Wolves and Agnostic Neo-Nazis, who draw inspiration from Internet hate sites — and run with it.

"I don't know what's more frightening," says Ward, "kids joining organized hate groups, or the way hate is rising up spontaneously among kids who feel it's OK to terrorize and assault people because of their race or religion or sexual orientation. What does that say about where our society's headed?"

Desperately Seeking Stability
It's an excellent question. Why is juvenile hate spreading in a culture that seems to become more accepting of differences by the day?

There's no shortage of reasons that have been proferred by sociologists and criminologists. Some blame the re-segregation of schools and neighborhoods. Some point to the omnipresence of violence in movies, on TV, and in video games.

Some cite misguided "zero tolerance" policies in schools and communities, where kids are increasingly incarcerated for first offenses; on any given day, well over 100,000 U.S. youth are locked up in places that are "not only schools of violence," says Levin, "but crash courses in hatred."

Then there's the lingering death of the American dream: with downward mobility — rather than upward — as their most likely future direction, more middle-class kids are looking to rebel, and looking for somebody to blame.

No single factor is sufficient to explain the spread of youth hatred. But the upsurge in one of its main manifestations — white supremacy — has inspired a theory developed by sociologists like Pamela Perry and Randy Blazak.

In Perry's 2002 book, Shades of White, she chronicled the racial attitudes of white kids at two contemporary California high schools — one predominantly white, one minority white. She found what Blazak calls "anomie" — French sociologist Emile Durkheim's term for the sense of confusion brought on by rapid social change.

The confusion, in this case, amounts to a basic question: "[W]hat is the new role of whites in the multicultural chorus?"

As Blazak points out in his forthcoming book, Ethnic Envy, "contemporary youth were born in the 1980s and 1990s, long after the frontline civil rights battles." White kids lack a long-term perspective on racial oppression in the U.S. — and end up saying, for instance, that "racism ended in the 1960s" and they're tired of hearing blacks "complaining about it."

They also see Hispanics, lesbians and gay men, Asian-Americans and others embraced and recognized — while straight white culture seems, from their limited vantage points, to be dissed and demonized.

"White kids feel like their racial identity is murky nowadays," says Ward. That's been partly responsible for the outbreak of Confederate flag T-shirts in high schools, both North and South, and also in several efforts — usually snuffed out by administrators — to start Caucasian clubs, mostly in California high schools.

"When they bring it up, they get their hands slapped," Ward says, "and they become pariahs. Pariahs can be dangerous."

Hate groups have tailored their recruitment pitches to these frustrated white kids. A perfect example is Jeff Schoep, "commander" of the National Socialist Movement, who says his group "lets our young people know it's all right to be white, and better yet, something to be proud of."

With whites already a minority in some parts of the U.S., it's a pitch that has become very popular among extremist groups — and among bright, middle-class kids like Logan Brown. The 15-year-old lives in California, the first large American state to become minority white, and he's trying to revive the Aryan Nations Youth Action Corps.

Brown insists that he's nothing like "the stereotypical racist," certainly no "redneck." But he yearns for the long-lost days like "the 1920s when everything was white and beautiful. Minorities were few and far between. Gays weren't out of the closet. We were a white civilized nation."

Brown's longing for simplicity and order — two things that seem hopelessly lost in the America of 2004 — points up one final, age-old reason why kids turn to hate. They want to know why the world seems so messy, so complicated, so out-of-control.

"Most parents, most teachers don't pretend to have easy answers," notes Ward. "Hate groups do. Hate music does. Hate sites do. The racist Skinhead down the street does, too."

Easy answers can be mighty appealing to young people. But when those answers don't mesh with the complicated realities of contemporary life, the result can be anger, frustration, and violence. The following articles offer sad, and instructive, testimony to that.

[elSicomoro]

Originally Posted by lookout123

and nobody has even attempted to answer how the real organizations aren't exclusivist and racist by their very definition.

Groups like the NAACP were created to help minorities advance as a culture, at a time when they were nothing more than second-class citizens and the white man ruled the world. As I see it, minorities are still considered second-class citizens by many, and the white man still rules the world. As such, the groups are still necessary. I personally don't see such groups as racist or consider this a double-standard.

[Happy Monkey]

Also, there are a multitude of Anti-Defamation leagues for various white ethnicities which are active wherever there happen to be any lingering "no Irish need apply"-like sentiments. Of course, they don't get as much press because they don't have as much work to do.

[lookout123]

LSyc - i apologize if you think that this was an attack on you or your views in any way. i am not angry, upset, or even especially excited in any way over race issues. my main point, which maybe i didn't communicate clearly, is that most of these organizations, while having a valid mission statement, actually act in ways counter to their intentions.

the civil rights movement was meant to end the foolish and evil oppression of blacks and other minorities in our country. much ground was gained there but we are not to the end of the road yet. racism and ignorance still exist in society, because society is still comprised of men and women. until we eradicate that strange 2 legged creature known as human, we cannot rid ourselves of ignorance. BUT, i firmly believe that any organization that draws distinction and attempts to classify and set apart people of different skin colors, faiths, etc... is acting counter to our nation's best interests. what we need is a mindset that accentuates peoples' similarities, not differences; that shows that all of interests our advanced when we work together toward a common goal, not many goals set for many different groups distinguishable by color.

again, if you thought that this was a personal battle which required reinforcements, or if you thought i was trying to get you to surrender to my view of the world - i sincerely apologize.
just another day in the cellar, just another topic to stir the braincells.

[Troubleshooter]

Originally Posted by sycamore

I personally don't see such groups as racist or consider this a double-standard.

rac·ism Audio pronunciation of "racist" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (rszm)
n.

1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.*

*Emphasis added

They are racist.

Now, if you'd like to come up with a better word I'd be happy to apply it, but as it stands, any use of the word in referrence to an organization that doesn't include other races is wrong.

The terms must be clear. See the The Rules of The Game.

[DanaC]

Thats like calling a women's support group sexist because it doesnt include or take into account men

[lookout123]

Originally Posted by DanaC

Thats like calling a women's support group sexist because it doesnt include or take into account men

are you sure you want to open that can of worms?

why is it that female golfers can sue to get on the PGA, and people support it? if a man tried to get on the LPGA, they would call him an ass.

females sue for the right to gain entrance to a private men's golf club and get attention and support. if a man wants entrance to Curves gym, he would be an ass...

[Troubleshooter]

Originally Posted by DanaC

Thats like calling a women's support group sexist because it doesnt include or take into account men

sex·ism Audio pronunciation of "sexist" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (skszm)
n.

1. Discrimination based on gender*, especially discrimination against women.
2. Attitudes, conditions, or behaviors that promote stereotyping of social roles based on gender.

*Emphasis added.

Not liking a definition is not the same as not agreeing to the terms of that definition. It's important to be on the same page.

Connotations aside, the definition is correct.

[DanaC]

*chuckles* let me guess....Sexism is no longer the problem that it was, and we women should let bygones be bygones, bury the hatchet and stop trying to make men feel guilty for the sins of their forefathers? Any balancing attempts on our part are by default aimed at modern day man when in reality he has done us no harm and as such our balancing attempts become in and of themselves an oppression?

Well *smiles* that's one way of looking at it. Another way is that we live in a world built of both modernity and antiquity and many of the economic imperatives and social conditioning which underpinned the deeply patriarchal and possibly misogynistic world of our grandparents are still in evidence and as such still to be fought against

[Clodfobble]

It sure is. Here, I'll do better than simile, let's go for straight up equivalency: The National Organization of Women IS sexist, DanaC.

Edit: Oh, well sure, change your post then. :P

[jaguar]

Not to mention if an ad made women out to be dumb blondes who should be in the kitchen the company would be sued out of existance but any kind of potshot at men is fine.

[jaguar]

That said, the recent suit against one of the big financial firms, forget who showed there is still serious wage disparity.