Has our intelligence dropped to zero already?

[busterb]

I hate to even post, but when I was in school. One trip to office would sufice, because you got your butt busted + again when you got home.

[SILVERWOLFNC]

I hold the right to reserve judgement till more is known about this case. As of now I have only read the article that was posted which leaves many questions:

1. Why was the kid living with his grandparents? What happened to his parents?
2. Had he been acting suspicious, had they caught him with drugs, was he taking antidepresents or some perscribed drug for emotional problems.
3. What is this kid's personality like? Is he a loner that gets depressed alot? Are the other kids at school picking on him and putting him down and that's why wrote what he did in his diary?

These are things only a police profiler or phsychiatrist can answer and hopefully they will come out in court. We can't pass judgement without all the facts. The police can search and seizure without a warrent if they can prove in a court of law that they had probable doubt that a situation existed. After all is said and done can we afford to take any more risks with our kids lives. If your a parent think if your childs death could have been prevented by another parent or gaurdian actually taking intrest in thier childs well fare instead of letting them watch TV and play video games on the internet with out knowing what in the hell thier kid is actually up to but expecting the media and internet to babysit for them.

[OnyxCougar]

Hold the phone, Big. Just stop for a second, and take a deep breath from your indignace for a moment.

Originally Posted by BigV

NO. The incident must have started when the class was full, and the two video clips I saw were both in the vice principal's office.

The video clips you linked were (1) classroom and (2) principals office. They are clearly marked as such.

You cannot tell if that classroom is a special ed classroom or a regular classroom. You cannot tell that from the video nor from the commentary. You don't know if she's special needs or not. If she isn't, she needs to be.

The substitue/teacher in training couldn't handle the situation with the little girl, she was sent to the vice principal's office.

Perhaps that was her regular teacher, (I've seen no indication in the news story it was a sub or teacher in training) and Jaieesha lost it. Let me point out this one teeny little fact.

As a teacher, YOU CANNOT TOUCH THESE CHILDREN. You can't. That's one reason why the video tape was moved from the classroom to the principals office. Because they wanted proof (you can hear them discussing it on the tape) that the teacher did not touch the child, other than removing her from the table, which is a dangerous situation for the child. The teacher keeps saying "You cannot touch me" while Jaieesha is hitting her.

Bad behavior? Yes. But the girl is FIVE YEARS OLD. Who is the adult here?

The teacher was, and under strict guidelines CANNOT TOUCH THAT CHILD.

When you send your child to kindergarten, don't you expect the teachers and the administrators (or the nurse or the librarian or the gym teacher or the school secretary or somebody) to have had some experience with little kids? How to soothe a kid that's having a tantrum?

Yes, but.. we know the cops have seen little 5 year old Jaieesha before because she remembers the cops!! We know the mother had been called 45 minutes prior to the arrival of the cops. We know the mother wasn't there. It's obvious that Jaieesha has issues that go beyond a normal child's "tantrum".

I have a young child. I asked him how he felt when he was sent to the principal's office. His answer: scared. That sounds about right. Try to think of it from the five year old's point of view. You have no power. Things don't go your way. Mommy's gonna be mad. Hell yeah you're scared.

I bet your son, being raised by a responsible (and normally level-headed) parent, would have a tantrum, get sent home, get disciplined, and that would be it. This child had a tantrum OVER AN HOUR LONG. That is NOT a normal "tantrum". That's a special needs child that needs help that a school cannot provide.

Now that bad behavior, that acting out, that "hitting" the principal, that's not good. It's not good for the girl, the adults, or anyone else around. But how can that behavior stop? By definition, the kid's lost control at that moment. Who does the responsibility for control fall to then. Come on, think. I bet you can get this one right. Yeah. The adult.

I agree 100%, but lets keep in mind our school's rule. THEY CANNOT TOUCH THE CHILD. They cannot restrain the child. They cannot put her in a lock or a hold, or anything else, because they are the school, and if they do, it spells LAWSUIT for the school district. I promise you. No district wants a lawsuit, so they have very very strict guidelines. Ask your son's school. They won't touch him either. They will call you and keep him from hurting himself and others as much as possible WITHOUT touching him.

Remember when your young'uns were colicky, inconsolable? Hey, some power struggle over something in which you were completely right and the kiddie was completely wrong. Like this classroom situation. When you and child had this conflict, how did you settle it?

When it's MY CHILD, I would either (a) restrain or (b) beat the snot out of him until he figures out that isn't going to fly with me. The school can't do EITHER, Big. They just CAN'T.

How would you de-escalate the situation? Could you try distraction? Persuasion? Calming words? When the kid's scared, you know they're not at their most malleable or reasonable. How do you get them to do what you want? You have to soothe the fears, duh. I didn't see much of that in these two videos.

As a teacher, I'd do just what the teachers in the video did. By the time we saw Jaieesha in the classroom, it was too late. The cajoling and the persuation had already happened, and she was out of control. And she was loving her power. Let's review: if it's a regular classroom (which I sincerely doubt) she's managed to disrupt it enough to clear it out. She's got all eyes on her, she has multiple teachers there, she's getting alot of attention.

Later, in the principles office, she was tearing shit off the walls for Christ's sake. The teacher kept telling her no, using hand signals (another reason I think this was special needs...they are trained to use gestures as reinforcement) and she was playing a game with ripping the pictures off the wall. Darting, faking, she was having a damn good time.

Once a child reaches the point where they know they aren't going to be punished at school, they will act up in school. And it doesn't appear the threat of her mother was too bad, either....and was followed up with mom not showing up for over 45 minutes. Yeah. Great parenting.

Wrong.

The male cop says to the vice principal:

"I see you took my advice."

The camera is on Jaieesha, she is sitting quietly at the table. The male cop says to her:

"Jaieesha. You have to calm down and you have to do it right now. Ok? Remember me? I'm the one you told your mom put the handcuffs on you. Aight."

I've listened again and I don't hear it that way.

Yep. And leg restraints (shackles). And she was put in the back of the squad car.

Really? Explain these wild statements. I love a good fantasy story.

Come on, Big, don't be like that.

I am amazed that you would consider rewarding such incompetence with a raise. Did she do her job? Did she control the situation? Shit. Did she teach anybody anything? A raise?! phbtbbtbbtbtbt.

Damn straight. and a big ass one, too. She followed district and school policies and showed a patience and tolerance for that bullshit far better than *I* would have. She did her job AND more.

Damn straight. Because if the existing policy is to CALL THE POLICE AND HAVE THEM ARREST, HANDCUFF AND SHACKLE FIVE YEAR OLD GIRLS who have tantrums, the policy, and I'm being generous here, is b-r-o-k-e-n.

To be continued:

[OnyxCougar]

Big.... this was NOT a normal tantrum for a 5 year old child. Dude. Over an HOUR?? This was not a "tantrum". This was Jaieesha showing the if she ISN'T in a special needs classroom, she NEEDS to be. I don't want my 5-year old child in the classroom with her, because she's obviously got issues with control and violence. She's been involved with the police before, this is "acting out", not "tantrum". This is NOT normal 5 year old behavior, even in a "tantrum" situation.

All you're seeing is the big bad policemen handcuffing her. On the tape, she doesn't go sit in the corner until she hears that the cops have shown up. THEN she goes and sits down (prolly tired as hell) and tries to look all innocent. It appears she respects the police officers and NO ONE ELSE.

Perhaps (and keep in mind we don't have the history of this situation, thanks to the attorney who posted the video but gave up no prior history of the school, her behavior or whatever..) this is the only attention she gets. She freaks until the cops show up, then it's all good.

Hey OC, your sig talks about personal responsibility.

"Up to a point a man's life is shaped by environment, heredity, and movements and changes in the world about him. Then there comes a time when it lies within his grasp to shape the clay of his life into the sort of thing he wishes to be. Only the weak blame parents, their race, their times, lack of good fortune, or the quirks of fate. Everyone has it within his power to say, 'This I am today, that I will be tomorrow' "
- Louis L'Amour

Would you say that that point in a person's life when the dominant shaping forces change from environmental factors to internal factors is near five years old?

I would say dominant forces are between birth and 5-ish. And this little girl OBVIOUSLY has issues. Whether it's a physical problem (ADHD, bipolar, aspergers) or just a behavioral one (parents don't discipline, don't care, don't wanna care) this child has a very long, hard road ahead of her.

Maybe teenagers? Fully growed adults, though, for sure, right? But all parties surrender their self responsibility.

I think the teachers and administrators did their job. They could not control the child, and so called the police to control the child. Teachers are not babysitters. They are educators. When you can't touch a child, or restrain them, calling the police is your only opotion. Why don't you understand that??

And of all them, only the little girl can be excused.

I don't think some of this is her fault, but I don't think this behavior is excused. This was willfull behavior. She was fully aware this was not correct behavior. And didn't care.

Actually, the cops don't shirk their responsibility. But their reaction is utterly over the top. Did you see that part where the girl's sitting at the table and the cop tells her to settle down and do it right now? Ok, achieved. Where's the reason to cuff her?

I want to be clear. I think handcuffing her *at that point* was necessary because they were going to take her away to the police station, and if *I* was a cop, I would not want a violent 5 year old in the back seat of my squad car unrestrained. She could be flailing around back there and hurt herself. Better to handcuff her in the building and put her in the car than try to handcuff in the car.

*crickets chirping* *sound of pin dropping* *deafening silence*

Right. I thought so. There is no reason, no good reasonable reason.

You're speaking from the standpoint of an emotional parent. Step back and look at the administrators and the police pov. It makes sense.

But the spokesman for the police department , Bill Profit, agrees with you:

Bill Profit:
"There is no minimum age for criminal culpability."

Well, yeah, I don't think there was criminal activity here. I think that's a dumb statement.

News flash! A five year old is NOT criminally culpable for a tantrum in class like this. He's toeing the company line, sure, but I want people in these positions, and in postions like the officers, to use judgement, not just dogma.

I agree with you here.

Remember that 911 call from the moron in the drive through? That dispatcher, SHE exercised some adult judgement to not dispatch the cops to enforce a cheeseburger. Her humor and intelligence prevail. Why was that absent here?

This is wrong wrong wrong. When there's a problem with my kid in class, he may have to go to the principal's office. This little girl did. When my kid's having a problem at school, call me. The school did. When my kid's freakin out, calm him down. There were a couple of false starts here, but not sustained.

Yes, the school did just right. They tried to calm. But keep the rule in mind here. THEY CANNOT TOUCH YOUR CHILD. All they can use is words, and as we saw, that did fuckall. They called the parent. Parent never showed, even after 45 minutes. So they took the next step and called the police. Absolutely right.

But when my five year old child is in this kind of awful situation, do not call the cops.

What else are they going to do? The parent didn't show. After 45 minutes. Hello?? What is the school supposed to do? Spend all day dealing with this child's behavior and send them home on the bus? I don't think so. The parent here is the one who could have avoided this situation. Hey, note to Jaieesha's mom: when the school calls and tells you your child is having a meltdown and is in the principals office, GO GET THE CHILD.

If I was the school, and the mom didn't show up in 45 minutes, hell yeah, my next step is the cops.

Don't arrest him. Don't handcuff him. Don't shackle him. Don't park him in the back of the squad car.

Once the cops arrived, the school was done with the situation. Once the cops arrived, it was the cops responsible for the situation. The teachers and administrators don't make the call if she's handcuffed or arrested. The cops do.

Don't do these things and expect to have your job on the following Monday, because if you do, your galactic fucking incompetence endangers ALL the children you're around. You're a failure and a menace. Get out of my face and get out of my school

Wrong wrong wrong. You have thought out the situation, followed district and school policy, and you'll do it again like that last time.

Call your kid's school. Ask them what their policy is.

[SILVERWOLFNC]

I've gotta pick up a speed reading course. This all started out with a teenage kid writing about killing his classmates then changed in a second to be about the 5 year old girl who got handcuffed. It all boils down to the parents. I was beaten with a belt and a switch( a small young sapling reed or stick for non southerners). These kids today are give time outs. They are told they can't be disciplined by spankings(by the way in my day corpral punishment was in school and we'd rather get spanked by the principal than have to go home and have our parents spank us). Time outs have become the biggest BS in history. How can you discipline a child by telling them to go to thier room when they have access to cable TV, video games and the internet. We should be making them have time out on the front stoop or the back yard. Make them plant a tree or some flowers. This go to your room crap is for the birds. I guess after my long "tantrum" I should come to my point. The parents are what make or break these kids. Relying on others to raise our children and discipline them and just think we can sit back and feed and cloth them with out molding them into model citizens who respect not just those with badges but all adults. Have you actually been into a highschooll lately the freshman are bullying the Seniors....when the hell did this come about. Seniors used to bully freshman now it seems the freshman are too scared that the same laws that we say protect our kids will actually make them be the bad guys now for fighting back. This PC society has weakened the infostructure of what America was founded on. How many kids today even know what the American Constitution is let alone know where it is or what's written in it? Ok that's enough of my "soap box" for now.

[wolf]

What I don't get is why she wasn't treated as a behavioral emergency, and taken to the nearest psych hospital.

[busterb]

"Go Wolf." this seems to be the heart of problem. Call your kid's school. Ask them what their policy is.

[busterb]

Maybe a little "cool hand luke" is needed at home?

[OnyxCougar]

Originally Posted by SILVERWOLFNC

I've gotta pick up a speed reading course. This all started out with a teenage kid writing about killing his classmates then changed in a second to be about the 5 year old girl who got handcuffed.

That's how it is around here.

It all boils down to the parents. I was beaten with a belt and a switch( a small young sapling reed or stick for non southerners). These kids today are give time outs. They are told they can't be disciplined by spankings(by the way in my day corpral punishment was in school and we'd rather get spanked by the principal than have to go home and have our parents spank us).

That was a different time, when neighbors knew each other, and when neighbors could beat your ass when they saw you doing stupid shit and then take you home to your mama and then SHE'D beat your ass, too, for making the neighbor take the time out of her day to discipline you.

Time outs have become the biggest BS in history. How can you discipline a child by telling them to go to thier room when they have access to cable TV, video games and the internet. We should be making them have time out on the front stoop or the back yard. Make them plant a tree or some flowers. This go to your room crap is for the birds.

My 17 year old is too big to beat now, so I restrict him from the computer and the phone and the radio. That didn't used to work, because he didn't care and would go to sleep for the day. Now that he's got a girlfriend, he gets pissed. It's punishment now. (evil laugh)

My 12 year old still gets the time outs in the corner of the living room, not his room where he can go play...he sits there, back to the TV. He's not allowed to speak unless he raises his hand. For him, that's punishment enough, unless he REALLY messes up, then he gets a 3 swat beating. He goes through cycles...he'll gradually increase the messup ratio until the beating, then he'll be fine for a few more months, then another beating....

All I have to do with the 8 year old is look at her mad and yell and send her to her room and she's a mess.

I guess after my long "tantrum" I should come to my point. The parents are what make or break these kids. Relying on others to raise our children and discipline them and just think we can sit back and feed and cloth them with out molding them into model citizens who respect not just those with badges but all adults.

Amen! Teachers are not babysitters. They are educators.

Have you actually been into a highschooll lately the freshman are bullying the Seniors....when the hell did this come about. Seniors used to bully freshman now it seems the freshman are too scared that the same laws that we say protect our kids will actually make them be the bad guys now for fighting back.

I know that the 8 year old is having trouble at school, because he needs a different classroom setting than "regular" ed, but the schools only alternative is special ed, which is the severely handicapped or severe behavioral disorders like Jaieesha (and worse). That would be worse than regular, so he's in regular. Still not what he needs, but the only other option is homeschooling, which I can't afford to do. This lifetime.

This PC society has weakened the infostructure of what America was founded on. How many kids today even know what the American Constitution is let alone know where it is or what's written in it? Ok that's enough of my "soap box" for now.

I'm not quite sure where that came from, but YEAH!!

Welcome to the cellar, by the way. UNC!

[dar512]

I agree, BigV, that it was unreasonable for the girl to be handcuffed.

Unfortunately, due to our lawsuit happy country most, if not all, reasonable options are closed. Unless the girl is mentally handicapped, I suspect a timeout would have settled her down. But what do you do if the child refuses the timeout? You can't spank her. In some places you can't even touch her.

The fact that the girl had the temper tantrum in the first place indicates to me that she is not disciplined at home. So what do you do when parents won't discipline their children, and teachers can't?

[Catwoman]

For christs sake! I haven't read the whole thread so I apologise now if any of this is out of context, but "time out"?? This notion of punishment is cruel, ineffective and gives kids completely the wrong idea. If I did something my parents didn't like and I was made to stand in the corner of a room I would think them ridiculous, not listen to what they have to say. Bear in mind the kid-in-need-of-discipline obviously didn't consider his actions to be wrong, or he wouldn't have done it. Parents need to instill a proper sense of right, wrong and rationality in kids so they can UNDERSTAND why they mustn't do something, then they won't do it again! If they don't understand, they'll keep doing it. If they do understand and still keep doing it, there's no hope, give up, and let them ruin their lives. They'll either remain so until they die, or hit a sudden realisation at some point causing them to take responsibility for their actions.

It's a difficult subject I know but parents acting stupidly by reacting or making them do stupid things will not help a child to think of them as a trustworthy authority on life, just another 'silly adult'.

To be quite frank, if one does not possess the ability to be rational and get it right (and thus effective in their discipline), they shouldn't be having children.

[Catwoman]

Just to add that I'm all in favour of a sharp wrap (not beating) at younger ages to stun an irrepresible child and show them who's boss.

[mrnoodle]

Now that bad behavior, that acting out, that "hitting" the principal, that's not good. It's not good for the girl, the adults, or anyone else around. But how can that behavior stop? By definition, the kid's lost control at that moment. Who does the responsibility for control fall to then. Come on, think. I bet you can get this one right. Yeah. The adult.

I'm glad this is coming out into the open. Because we've completely taken away any power from authority figures in school, the kids are running the place. They learn by their 3rd week in class that the adults in the building are terrified to do anything to them for fear of lawsuits. Unless, of course, it's a hot-button issue like drugs, in which case a kid with a Flintstone vitamin can be locked away for life.

This little girl knew she owned the teacher, and had no reason to stop misbehaving until she just tired out. Of course, if the teacher had swatted that little butt a couple times in the early part of the incident, the video would only have been 20 seconds long. And the teacher would go to jail for abuse. Of course, the child would know that it's unacceptable to throw a screaming fit, but hysterical school boards and anti-discipline advocates translate that as, "teaching her that violence is the answer."

The cops are the only recourse these poor teachers have when "time-out" fails to work. At last count, I believe it fails 100% of the time.

I'm as angry as BigV is, but I'm angry at a system that is less concerned about children than it is about lawsuits from special interest groups.


Edit: just read the first bleatings about how badly the child was "damaged" by having police put handcuffs on her when she was sitting so sweetly at the table, not hurting anyone. :doh: if she continues to act like that without being disciplined, she better get used to the sensation of cold metal on the wrists.

[glatt]

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

This little girl knew she owned the teacher, and had no reason to stop misbehaving until she just tired out. Of course, if the teacher had swatted that little butt a couple times in the early part of the incident, the video would only have been 20 seconds long. And the teacher would go to jail for abuse. Of course, the child would know that it's unacceptable to throw a screaming fit, but hysterical school boards and anti-discipline advocates translate that as, "teaching her that violence is the answer."

The cops are the only recourse these poor teachers have when "time-out" fails to work. At last count, I believe it fails 100% of the time.

Now you are just pulling shit out of your ass.

The only thing a child learns from being hit is that "might makes right."

My children have never been spanked or hit in any way, and they don't act like this. My kids know what is expected of them, they know what our family values are, we strive to enforce rules as consisitently as we can, because that's the key. There are lots of ways to punish a child without getting physical. Taking away privileges is the best way I've found. My daughter, who is the same age as the kid in this video was one of a handful of students recognized in her school as a "peacemaker," so I'm not just a proud parent speaking with bias. She's an extremely well behaved kid who has never been spanked once, and never will be.

True discipline is a hell of a lot more than hitting a kid, and hitting is totally unnecessary. In fact, I would say (biased view coming) that people who hit their kids are too lazy to actually discipline them correctly and effectively. The hitting feels like you are being "tough" but doesn't actually convey any useful information to the kid. In fact, I think hitting probably does more harm than good in most cases.

I don't know the details of this case, but I think Wolf may be on to something that the child is a special needs kid.

P.S. If any teacher laid a hand on my kids, they would feel what it is like to be hit themselves.

[wolf]

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

The cops are the only recourse these poor teachers have when "time-out" fails to work. At last count, I believe it fails 100% of the time.

"Time Out" only works for children who have a conscience.