London Bombing

[vsp]

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

First, let me apologize for calling names. It's dumb.

Fair enough.

But the sooner we realize that we are ALL targets

And we always have been.

Most of us here in America were somewhat sheltered from the realities of terrorism before 9/11, and it was such a rude wake-up call that I suppose I can't blame people for still being freaked out. However, I don't think there's a square inch of turf in the world that could truly be considered "safe," unless it's out in the middle of some Aborigine plateau that few people even know exists, but where the spiders and snakes are more likely to get you than anything else.

Some clips from today's British blogs, snitched from another site:

There has been a widespread outbreak of grumbling and tutting today in London, along with a large number of people going home instead of to work, with a certain amount of guilty pleasure.

Sorry, bad guys. We've been bombed before, and we just adjust our day to account for it. This is London calling.

Ooh. I shoul dswitch Fox News on...

Yep. Far more dramatic. If I'd ben watching this on its own, I'd be convinced that the whole of London was a crater.

And it's taken 30 seconds to link it to Iraq and a war on Christianity. Good going, Fox!

Did Londoners still react differently to New Yorkers? Yes, they evidently did. Culturally, we are very different cities. Londoners are proud of their strength and resilience in a crisis, and they're going to talk about it. It is distasteful, perhaps, to compare it to New York, but that too can be blamed on our thick skin and black humour. This is our response. We don't weep in the street. We make a cup of tea and say something wry and tasteless.

This is life in our modern world. We are humans; we adapt. Doesn't mean that we have to like it or sit back and take it when people do awful things, doesn't mean that those responsible shouldn't pay for their crimes, but let's not act like this is some kind of new 21st-century phenomenon.

and 9/10 muslims in ANY part of the world wouldn't so much as shed a tear at our death

See, you could yell that into my ear for the next ten years and you still wouldn't be reaching me.

A lot of Americans hate Iraq/Iran/etc. because they're convinced that they hate us and would like to see us dead.

A lot of Iraqis/Iranians/etc. hate Americans because they're convinced that Americans hate them and would like to see them dead.

Think about that for a minute. Sounds like a self-perpetuating fallacy on both sides, doesn't it?

[dar512]

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

But the sooner we realize that we are ALL targets, and 9/10 muslims in ANY part of the world wouldn't so much as shed a tear at our death, the safer we will be.

Be honest. You pulled that number out of ... thin air didn't you?

Does anyone know of any polls that have been done in the last five years of Near East/Mediterranean Muslims as to pro/anti American leanings? If we don't have at least some rough numbers for Iraq, how can we hope to know how much effort it's going to take to find closure there?

[kerosene]

Sorry to interrupt the discussion, but I just wanted to say I am glad to hear you are okay, Jag. When I heard about this I wondered. My thoughts are with you, and those close to you for your feelings of anger and helplessness. May you heal expediently from the emotional damage this sort of thing causes.

In light of the current tangent, crazies come in all shapes, sizes, colors and religious flavors. I have met many Muslims who aren't extremists and don't have the mindset so many of these attacks personify. I have met Christians that don't believe it is right to blow up an abortion clinic.

[Elspode]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Iraqi Security Forces aren't being killed by our occupation forces - they're being killed by insurgents because they are perceived by the insurgents as being traitors/American pawns.

Technically you should take those numbers out of the last set of equations, thus proving that either we are being more careful this time out, or our efficieny is dropping terribly.

Originally Posted by Elspode

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Iraqi Security Forces aren't being killed by our occupation forces - they're being killed by insurgents because they are perceived by the insurgents as being traitors/American pawns.

Technically you should take those numbers out of the last set of equations, thus proving that either we are being more careful this time out, or our efficieny is dropping terribly.

In theory, no, Security Forces aren't being killed by us except maybe a case of mistaken idenity here or there. Still, they wouldn't be getting killed at all but for the war and they ARE MUSLIM deaths.

Your point is valid enough, though. The ratio remains about the same without those 2 or 3 thousand, so we can leave them off if you wish.

[mrnoodle]

if that's true, where's the outcry from the muslim rank and file? where are the blogs, the radio and TV interviews, the books and magazine articles from muslims denouncing the killing?

[wolf]

I strongly recommend actually reading The Koran.

It's not what we're all told it is, you know ... most of the Evil Rhetoric™ that we hear about is the result of exortations of individual clerics and sects.

The Book itself is pretty mild. Occasional smitings by God, relatively few exhortations to smite, and clear indications that there should be good relations with Jews and Christians.

Of course, I could have read the "watered down for better PR edition." I did buy it after 9-11.

[mrnoodle]

Originally Posted by wolf

I strongly recommend actually reading The Koran.

It's not what we're all told it is, you know ... most of the Evil Rhetoric™ that we hear about is the result of exortations of individual clerics and sects.

The Book itself is pretty mild. Occasional smitings by God, relatively few exhortations to smite, and clear indications that there should be good relations with Jews and Christians.

Of course, I could have read the "watered down for better PR edition." I did buy it after 9-11.

I bought a copy when a girl I know was set to marry a muslim guy. We were trying to talk her out of it (he wanted her to wear a burka, didn't let her go out with friends, etc.), but she said the same thing -- "It's not what you think, read the book."

So I did. When I get home, I'll pull it out and read the passages again. But they were straightforward and left no room for doubt. And they commanded the followers of Mohammed to declare jihad on anyone who didn't follow Islam. Straight out.

[Queen of the Ryche]

wolf:

[mrnoodle]

self-perpetuating, obviously. Fallacy? Ask the people in the back half of that bus. For every muslim that publicly supports freedom and peace, there are 40,000 in the town square chanting "death to america"

while we sit in our comfy flats and houses and delude ourselves into thinking that they either don't really mean it, or are talking about someone else. we have become so numb from our pampered lifestyles that we don't recognize the real danger anymore. We lack vigilance. in a week, no one will even look over their shoulder while riding the tube. it's just too comforting to think that these events are random, rather than a systematic eradication of your values, your safety, and your freedom. If you want to know who is on which side, look at the faces in the crowd at the next 'death to whoever' rally. they're avid, fanatic, and glowing with pride over the actions of this "small but well organized" movement.

[vsp]

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

self-perpetuating, obviously. Fallacy? Ask the people in the back half of that bus.

1. Today's terrorists killed the bus riders.
2. The terrorists are self-identifying Muslims.
3. Generally speaking, Muslims want to kill the bus riders and people like them.
...
1. Eric Rudolph bombed abortion clinics.
2. Eric Rudolph was a self-identifying Christian.
3. Generally speaking, Christians want to bomb abortion clinics.

Still want to follow that line of logic?

[lookout123]

Fortune

a writer for Fortune magazine was on a bus a few minutes behind on that exploded. here is his quick story. nothing breathtaking or sensational, just a quick article by someone who was there and who coincidentally lived in NY on 9/11.

[Undertoad]

I'll stick with "Islamofascism" as a term for the school of thought. It is connected to hard-line Islam and is distinctly fascist in nature, even connected in schools of thought and insane hatred for the evil Other.

[Radar]

We also have to add the 200,000 who were bombed for 12 years straight, starved, and kept from life saving medicines between the 2 gulf wars.

Originally Posted by Radar

We also have to add the 200,000 who were bombed for 12 years straight, starved, and kept from life saving medicines between the 2 gulf wars.

Oh, my little sampling was far from a complete one. I imagine if someone had the time to wade through every last statistic on that site the overall ratio would be more like 300 to 1.

Anyone with the time and energy is welcome to correct my perception if its too far off base.