Immigration

[Munchkin]

Originally Posted by MaggieL

If you think the only people exploiting the illegal alien market are Republicans, you should probably think again.

Eh of course not, I only referenced the rethugs because of the parties stance on business.

But republicans still suck the most

[Shocker]

Originally Posted by Munchkin

But republicans still suck the most

Yeah, they suck on your mom

Originally Posted by Kitsune

That's because you have yet to lose it.

Hey, you proposed a mandatory national ID card rather than simply passing laws on something that is already illegal. That, at least, provides some method of enforcement in this mess. I suppose if my DL had a little US flag printed on it and I had to show it to a hiring party before I got a job, I guess I wouldn't have much of an issue. But will that place any pressure on illegal field workers, day larbor, contractors, or house maids?

I have no issue with an ID card as long as I don't have to carry it.
When a cop asks me who I am when at Ybor or a place like that my name is Dr. None of your damn business if I am not breaking the law.
I know it is a long name, but it is catchy.

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by Kitsune

You used your ham ticket on an I-9? That seems a bit strange to me.

No, I used my passport...the last item in that list. Closest thing we have to a national citizenship document.
I'm not sure I think a birth cert should be a citizenship document, there's discussion about what the Fourteenth Amendment says about who is a citizen.

Originally Posted by The Constitution

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside...

The argument is made that illegal aliens have not subjected themselves to the jurisdiction of the United States, being in flagrant contempt of that jurisdiction. Therefore being born inside the US to illegal alien parents shouldn't automatically make you a citizen. That "I tagged up at home so you can't touch me" argument again...

Originally Posted by Kitsune

Here's my main reason for being against a National ID: it isn't needed. You carry a pilot's license for proof that you have the ability to fly a plane, you carry a CCW to show proof that you have the ability to handle a firearm, and you have a driver's license to show that you have proven your ability to safely drive a vehicle...

Actually, while there are abilities prerequisite to those documents, they also attest to the fact that the associated privileges haven't been withdrawn from a particular identified individual due to malfeasance. Any of those licences could be revoked for cause, even though my abilites were unimpeded. The PA CCW doesn't prove I know how to shoot; it proves I passed a criminal background check. The FL CCW does have a (rather minimal) training requirement, and included a fingerprint check. These are identity documents as well as competancy certificates.

Originally Posted by Kitsune

I know of no reason that proof of citizenship would ever have to be carried in my wallet.

That's a circular argument...if it was required for employment you'd need it.

Originally Posted by Kitsune

That's because you have yet to lose it.

OK, stop hand-waving and identify it for me.

Originally Posted by Kitsune

Hey, you proposed a mandatory national ID card rather than simply passing laws on something that is already illegal.

No, I was responding to someone who wanted to know why enforcement of the existing law has been difficult to date. There's no existing universal fraud-resistant proof of citizenship document, which is the excuse exploiters use when caught with a payroll dripping with illegals who all presented fake SSAN cards (and in some cases real driver's licences).

[Munchkin]

Originally Posted by Shocker

Yeah, they suck on your mom

HA! youre funny

[Shocker]

LOL I try.

Well I actually think it is funny how people just say stuff about different groups of people suck. By saying Republicans suck, you are taking someones ideals and values and beliefs and making a personal attack against them. It speaks more for your character if rather than attacking someone personally if you take the issues you disagree with and respectfully debate the issue and try and understand the other side, even if you don't agree. Nothing is accomplished through personal attacks. Unless you are trying to make a point like I did in saying they suck your mom

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by MaggieL

The argument is made that illegal aliens have not subjected themselves to the jurisdiction of the United States, being in flagrant contempt of that jurisdiction. Therefore being born inside the US to illegal alien parents shouldn't automatically make you a citizen. That "I tagged up at home so you can't touch me" argument again...

I don't think that would work. If they weren't under the jurisdiction of the US, they couldn't be put in prison. That sounds like it is more applicable to people with diplomatic credentials.

[Munchkin]

Originally Posted by Shocker

LOL I try.

Well I actually think it is funny how people just say stuff about different groups of people suck. By saying Republicans suck, you are taking someones ideals and values and beliefs and making a personal attack against them. It speaks more for your character if rather than attacking someone personally if you take the issues you disagree with and respectfully debate the issue and try and understand the other side, even if you don't agree. Nothing is accomplished through personal attacks. Unless you are trying to make a point like I did in saying they suck your mom

Ok, I was generalizing. Let me rephrase:

The majority of elected officials that are republicans SUCK.
Our President and Vice President SUCK REALLY HARD
Tom Delay deserves to ROT IN FUCKING HELL along with Bill Frist...

Saying republicans suck is actually the opposite of a personal attack. It is a general attack . With that said, I must say, I do relate a lot to the ideals of the Rockefeller Republican. Unfortunately, at this point in time, the party seems to be catering to the psychotic extremeist of the religious right.

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by Shocker

By saying Republicans suck, you are taking someones ideals and values and beliefs and making a personal attack against them.

Actually, that's a generalization, not a personal attack.

[Shocker]

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

Actually, that's a generalization, not a personal attack.

Ok, well either way, using generalizations as well as personal attacks is no way to win an argument and definatly not very effective at swaying peoples' minds to your side.

Munchkin, you may think that all Republicans or the majority at least suck, you are entitled to that opinion. The point is, you aren't going to bring people to your side by saying stuff like that. (well maybe uneducated people) The key is, why do they suck? Do you not like them personally? Understandably, some people will just rub you the wrong way, but that isn't a reason to say that they suck. You should be respectful, even to people you don't like. Or is it you don't agree with thier policies? If that is the case, might I recommend you stop saying they suck and start saying, "I think that their stance on ____________ is wrong. I feel it could be done better/should be/etc. because ____________________" fill in the blanks. By saying what you disagree with and then stating your reasoning is much better and more respectful. I find it ironic that many people who say we need to treat terror suspects/illegal immigrants/criminals respectfully are the same ones who are completely disrespectful towards many of our leaders. And just like I said earlier if you don't like a law, get it changed, well if you don't like our leadership, well we have a midterm election coming up and a presidential election in a couple of years. Respectfully debate the issues and try and win people to your way of thinking so that you can make a difference in the elections.

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

I don't think that would work. If they weren't under the jurisdiction of the US, they couldn't be put in prison. That sounds like it is more applicable to people with diplomatic credentials.

Being outlaws, they're not under jurisdiction until apprehended; since they they haven't submitted to it. Being subject to a jursdiction and being under it aren't the same thing, in this case.

Someone who presents themselves for naturalization has submitted to US jurisdiction and is both subject to it and under it. A fugitive is not under jurisdiction even if they are subject to it. They can be brought under it only if apprehended, since they refuse to submit to it voluntarily.

A diplomat, being immunized (once their credentials are presented and accepted), is not even subject to that jurisdiction unless declared non grata.

[MaggieL]

"Republicans suck" doesn't exactly rise to the level of insightful analysis and critcal thought.

Name-calling like that doesn't serve any function other than

- helping members of the Lodge of Smug Liberals to identify each other, to enhance that same warm feeling of beleaguered cameraderie that causes Fundie Christians to put plastic fish and bumper stickers about the Rapture on thier cars, and

- alienating everybody else.

[Munchkin]

Oh jeez COME ON PEOPLE... I cant engage in some light hearted commentary about the suckiness of republicans?? I didnt feel that this thread was the place to go into detail about exactly why I feel that a lot of these republicans suck..

If I was trying to "bring people to my side" I wouldnt do it this way. If you want a conversation about the current state of the republican party and their current policies...and the people that they are pandering to, Id be happy to... I mean, I honestly feel sorry for the people who are republicans and actually have views other than just repeating the party talking points. The current administration is really representing them poorly.

To be fair here, I dont think the majority of Democrats are really doing all that well either . With the exception of a few... maybe say obama, dean, gore..pilosi... The party doesnt come together enough ... the republicans will stick with a strong party line, no matter how rediculous... the dems rarely can get all their numbers behind a good cause.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Originally Posted by tw

And still the basic problem remains. And still not one useful solution is suggested. And still the reason for the problem is ignored. What kind of solution is that? One created by a Congressional compromise?

Once immigrants could come to America on days notice. Now an immigrant must spend years just to get a visa. We solved the problem all right. Using MBA concepts also advocated by a certain American president, we added more layers of bureaucracy. Then we added more unreadable forms and more laws so that even immigrants need lawyers. Yeph. Problems solved.

Tw (you idiot), your obsession with damning George W. Bush for everything including the Ice Ages again demonstrates how defective your mind is. You make cussing George look like something only the noncredible pusbrains will ever do, and thus you impair your own cause. Not that you can see this -- you have a singularly crippled mind and suffer from inappropriate mentation, which sounds like a symptom of mental illness to me. Idiot, idiot, thrice idiot. Get the hell back on your meds that you may once again think like a fully human being, and quit wearying us with your damned obsessions.

Now to topic: I figure that nothing done in Washington or the several States will have any perceptible effect on the "immigrant problem," which I put in quotes because it's not so much that we have a problem with illegal immigration as that Latin America in general has a terrible economic problem: no middle class visible without powerful magnification. The problem seems most severe in Mexico and its neighbors down the Isthmus, less severe in Brazil, Argentina and Chile, with the other nations in the region falling somewhere in the middle.

Expect either a greater influx of Bolivians, or a revolution down there to throw that dumb socialist Evo Morales out of power. Left to his own devices, he will personally collapse the Bolivian economy and then maintain power surrounded by poverty by using secret police, death squads, and political imprisonment.

Measures taken north of the Rio Grande will not strike at the root of the problem, which is the only place longterm solutions will be effectuated: Mexico needs a middle class and hasn't got one, which makes for an artificially enlarged poor class, one with no way up except out. The problem is in Latin America, and Latin America is where it must be solved.

With a large, enriched, and vibrant middle economic class, Mexico becomes the inmigrante magnet, and our problems are so much reduced as to be largely solved. Yeah, Mexico gets the problems instead, but too, the same reforms that work for Mexico will likely work for the other countries too; let libertarian reforms roll forward all the way to Tierra del Fuego. I keep telling the Cellar libertarians that this needs to happen -- they keep not understanding it.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Originally Posted by Munchkin

Oh jeez COME ON PEOPLE... I cant engage in some light hearted commentary about the suckiness of republicans?? I didnt feel that this thread was the place to go into detail about exactly why I feel that a lot of these republicans suck..

Which is precisely how I feel about the Democrats. On the national level, the Jackass Party would rather fight a war for the White House than the war on terror, which is the most singularly inappropriate setting of priorities I've ever seen a group of Americans take, barring, of course, the Communist Party USA. The Dems are engaged in private empire-building while the Republicans are defending the Republic from bigots and jerks who break skyscrapers and made us bleed worse than Pearl Harbor.

So shit on the Democrats -- a useless lot of stupid donkeys. Shit on the Democrats twice -- they are very slow learners, and will require powerful stimulus to reform themselves back into being real Americans.