Tis The Poaching Season

[glatt]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

I don't buy it.
1. How is anything were doing in Iraq helping the oil to flow?
2. Our international escapades seem to be completely disconnected from anything the populace, say, do or feel.

Iraq isn't helping the oil flow, but that's only because we are losing. We are there to build a democracy in the region so we can have power and influence in a region that has lots of oil.

Since we are tangled up in the Mid East and spending a lot of money there, we should look at why we are doing that, and why we have been doing it for decades. It's to keep the oil flowing. We need to be there. We depend on their oil. Sometimes our meddling works. Sometimes it doesn't. Right now it isn't working, but we are still spending that money there for that purpose. The money comes from your income taxes, and it comes from selling debt to foregin countries. That debt will be paid back by future generations, and will result in a drag on our economy. We will pay for Iraq, one way or another.

All of these costs are hidden from the populace. They won't realize in 5 or 10 years that the reason they are having trouble making ends meet is because they were driving SUVs in the 1990s. If that cost was upfront. And consumers could see what their choices actually meant, then I think many consumers would make different choices.

The Iraq war is costing $2 Billion each week. That works out to $7 a week per person in the US, or about $30 per household per week. That's $1,500 per year per household. All, presumably to keep our influence in the middle east strong so that the oil will keep flowing.

My car gets twice the gas mileage of some of the larger SUVs. If that cost was reflect at the pump instead of coming out of my income taxes and future earnings, then my portion of the cost would be smaller. I'd be paying only $1000 per year while the SUV owners would be facing $2000. With math like that, in your face, at the pump, I'm certain fewer people would buy SUVs.

Over time, with fewer SUVs, our oil dependency would be reduced, and our need for meddling would be reduced. An added bonus would be that alternative fuels would have an easier job competing.

All it would take is for congress to impose a tax on gasoline to pay for any meddling in oil nations that it approves, instead of taking it from our income taxes.

Are you telling me if we didn't import oil we wouldn't be the world cop? I don't think that's remotely true.

I think our world cop role would be reduced dramatically. But I'm sure we would still be the world cop to some extent. I'm only suggesting that we have a gas tax to pay for our world cop role when it is in an oil region. Other areas should be paid for with income taxes.

[Shawnee123]

Originally Posted by glatt

Iraq isn't helping the oil flow, but that's only because we are losing.

We ARE? Oh crap...has anyone told the government?

[Pangloss62]

Moose Poaching in Alaska --------------------------------Iraq War & Oil


Gotta love the evolution of dem Cellar threads.

Originally Posted by Griff

basically what glatt said. If we had the wallet hit at the pump instead of in our income taxes or our children's income taxes vehicles would change.

rkzenrage- I'm not making an environmental argument. I'm saying, I'm tired of subsidizing other peoples vehicle/fuel choices. Between the tax $ cost and the body count in Iraq, you'd think glatt would get an amen on this. As long as we separate the cost at the pump from the real tax burden nobody is going to ask the automakers for a different rig.

Then don't... oppose the war.

Fewer SUVs = lower oil need... in a dream. Commercial use is where most goes and will continue to. You want to really change things, lobby your reps for lower fuel requirements for commercial vehicles and see if you can get them to respond with a straight face.
The impact of the day-to-day consumer is minimal. Again, if your use dictates an SUV or truck, buy it, that is what they are for. What others buy is none of your damn business...

[Griff]

Originally Posted by rkzenrage

What others buy is none of your damn business...

All I'm asking for is a free(er) market in energy.

Big ass Dodge pickup smashed the rear end of the Echo this afternoon... the smugmobile will be laid up for a bit. My truck gets <20mpg the Echo gets about 44mpg, this is gonna suck.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by glatt

Iraq isn't helping the oil flow, but that's only because we are losing. We are there to build a democracy in the region so we can have power and influence in a region that has lots of oil.

Saddam's Iraq was a pariah. A democratic Iraq would be the same for the same reasons. That's really stretching the term "influence".
I think any influence would be our military presence kept there.

Since we are tangled up in the Mid East and spending a lot of money there, we should look at why we are doing that, and why we have been doing it for decades. It's to keep the oil flowing.

Whoa, not so fast. All the billions to Israel every year is to keep the oil flowing? And Pakistan? And Turkey? That was supposed to keep the Soviets in check, not oil. Of course once you've spoiled them, you can't stop.

We need to be there. We depend on their oil. Sometimes our meddling works. Sometimes it doesn't. Right now it isn't working, but we are still spending that money there for that purpose. The money comes from your income taxes, and it comes from selling debt to foreign countries. That debt will be paid back by future generations, and will result in a drag on our economy. We will pay for Iraq, one way or another..

I agree all this wasted money in Iraq is coming out of our pockets, eventually.

All of these costs are hidden from the populace. They won't realize in 5 or 10 years that the reason they are having trouble making ends meet is because they were driving SUVs in the 1990s. If that cost was upfront. And consumers could see what their choices actually meant, then I think many consumers would make different choices.

The Iraq war is costing $2 Billion each week. That works out to $7 a week per person in the US, or about $30 per household per week. That's $1,500 per year per household. All, presumably to keep our influence in the middle east strong so that the oil will keep flowing.

Hidden? What are those links to, secret files? It's in the news all the time, mind boggling numbers, telling us the cost of this war.

My car gets twice the gas mileage of some of the larger SUVs. If that cost was reflect at the pump instead of coming out of my income taxes and future earnings, then my portion of the cost would be smaller. I'd be paying only $1000 per year while the SUV owners would be facing $2000. With math like that, in your face, at the pump, I'm certain fewer people would buy SUVs.

Horseshit, if all the SUVs vanished overnight, we'd still be spending billions in Iraq. If we stopped using oil overnight we'd still be spending billions in Iraq. Hello....War on Terror?

Over time, with fewer SUVs, our oil dependency would be reduced, and our need for meddling would be reduced. An added bonus would be that alternative fuels would have an easier job competing.

Take a look at the DOE chart below, it's in quadrillions of BTUs, but you get the picture. About 40% of the energy comes from oil and about 28% (about equal what we import) goes to transportation. A little less than half of that goes into gasoline, roughly 45% or 12.6% of our energy usage.
Now you're telling me that if the Suvs suddenly got 30 odd miles per gallon, we wouldn't have to dump billions into the war?

All it would take is for congress to impose a tax on gasoline to pay for any meddling in oil nations that it approves, instead of taking it from our income taxes.

I'm going to pay more for gasoline to buy oil from the middle east to fly those planes and drive those trains and boats with oil. Don't forget heating the houses and factories.? Or making the plastics?
You're saying SUVs = high petroleum imports = War. That is not true. Stand on the corner for an hour and count the white vans going by, you know, tradesmen, plumbers, electricians, etc. There's a hell of a lot of them and they are on the move all the time.

I think our world cop role would be reduced dramatically. But I'm sure we would still be the world cop to some extent. I'm only suggesting that we have a gas tax to pay for our world cop role when it is in an oil region. Other areas should be paid for with income taxes.

Since we don't get oil from Iraq that doesn't count, right? Oh, region.... well, we'd have to pay for watching Cuba since the Gulf is a oil region, right? Do you have any idea what a nightmare you're suggesting? You try to make it simple but it's not. It's terribly complex. SUVs are not the problem or the solution. Politics is both.

[footfootfoot]

Am I too late?

[Shawnee123]

Originally Posted by footfootfoot

Am I too late?

You are funny!

[Pangloss62]

I saw that coming...

[glatt]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Do you have any idea what a nightmare you're suggesting? You try to make it simple but it's not. It's terribly complex. SUVs are not the problem or the solution. Politics is both.

Yes, I know what a nightmare it would be. That's the point. If people don't feel it, they won't change their behavior. We're paying the cost anyway, we may as well assign that cost to where it belongs, so we can make informed descisions, and the market can adjust where it should. I'm tired of subsidizing everyone's SUVs. And you are right that it's not just SUVs. The market will spread the costs around to everyone that uses oil. It's only fair that the people that use the oil pay for the oil.

We pay for every quart of oil that we put into our trucks and SUVs... no one has ever suggested a subsidy to us.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by glatt

Yes, I know what a nightmare it would be. That's the point. If people don't feel it, they won't change their behavior. We're paying the cost anyway, we may as well assign that cost to where it belongs, so we can make informed descisions, and the market can adjust where it should. I'm tired of subsidizing everyone's SUVs. And you are right that it's not just SUVs. The market will spread the costs around to everyone that uses oil. It's only fair that the people that use the oil pay for the oil.

OK, so now it's not gasoline, it's oil...and by extension, everything made from oil, like fertilizer, blacktop and plastic. Oh, don't forget electricity, at least part of it, everyone has to pay more for whatever the percentage of electricity comes from oil.

Let's see now, how much tax would have to be added to a barrel of oil to pay for ...well, lets just say Iraq, for now? And how much of the war costs do we attribute to oil and how much to the war on terror? Does Afghanistan qualify as an oil charge? How about all the oil the military uses, do we pay double tax for that?

I guess Air Force One fuel would be taxed if the trip was about oil. The taxes the government runs up, would they be added to our regular taxes or billed separately? How about oil going into or coming out of the Strategic Oil Supply? Would we pay on the way in or out....or both?

Would oil used for humanitarian things like disaster relief be taxed? I guess Mom would have to pay tax on the oil for her sewing machine. What if she was sewing bandages for the Red Cross? Oh yes, would the cost of the 50,000 bureaucrats to handle these taxes be paid from the oil tax or the government budget?

I guess we'd just write off the American fishing fleet.... and American shipping would be out of the question. Of course, the American based airlines would be ok on their protected routes. And American farmers would be ok if increase the subsidies to cover their increased costs of fertilizer, operations and shipping.

Since all those billions in profits the oil companies have been rolling up, don't hold a candle to what Bush is throwing at Iraq, the tax would be what.....$2...$3 a gallon at the pump? Plus, of course, all the other things besides gas, I've mentioned. I wonder how much CDs/DVDs and jewel boxes would go up? Hmmm, inflation might be kept down to what....20% per year?

No, I don't think your proposal is equitable or practical.

[footfootfoot]

Originally Posted by rkzenrage

We pay for every quart of oil that we put into our trucks and SUVs... no one has ever suggested a subsidy to us.

I think it is corporate welfare. I seem to remember a few years back congress giving detroit auto makers about 3 grand for every SUV sold. This is off the top of my head and probably a viscous rumor. Youknow how they start, maybe someone who is more concerned than I may be able to verify this.

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

No, I don't think your proposal is equitable or practical.

But glatt isn't suggesting any new taxes. He's saying that we're already paying for all this, we just don't connect it to the amount of oil that we use. Let's say you were given the option to get a 30% discount on your income taxes, and that money would be added to your gas price instead--so if you don't buy the gas, you pay 30% less taxes. If you do buy it, everything stays the same for you money-wise, but you mentally realize how much money you're paying because of your oil usage.

[glatt]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

But glatt isn't suggesting any new taxes. He's saying that we're already paying for all this, we just don't connect it to the amount of oil that we use. Let's say you were given the option to get a 30% discount on your income taxes, and that money would be added to your gas price instead--so if you don't buy the gas, you pay 30% less taxes. If you do buy it, everything stays the same for you money-wise, but you mentally realize how much money you're paying because of your oil usage.

Thank you. At least someone gets what I'm trying to say.

I realize none of this is ever going to happen, because the accounting is too difficult and it's political suicide for whoever tries to pass the legislation. It would just be nice if we could all make our choices and pay for our own stuff without subsidizing others. Alternative fuels, fuel efficient cars, energy efficient manufacturing processes, etc. could all compete on a level playing field. The market might actually work to help make positive changes.