View on the recent Gaza/Israel stikes

[wolf]

Hamas shot first.

They made their choice.

It's not like they didn't know they were outgunned.

[DanaC]

Hamas aren't the only ones dying though Wolf. It doesn't matter who shot first. What matters is hundreds of Palestinians are dying. An entire people is trapped in a war zone.

[wolf]

Blame the guys who set up their rocket launchers next to the houses, then.

[DanaC]

There's a step in between them setting up their rockets and some completely unconnected child getting killed. It's the stage when an Israeli remote controlled drone targets a 12 year old on a roof. That is not Hamas' fault, that;s Israel's fault.

[lookout123]

Too true. The Israeli's should just stand there and take it like men. Targeting those shooting at you is soooo last century.

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by wolf

Hamas shot first.

They made their choice.

It's not like they didn't know they were outgunned.

Maybe you should read the article as well wolf...

Lets take this extreme ideal example:
Community one (C1) and community two (C2) are stuck on an isolated island with limited food. C1 and C2 do not like each other. C1 has control of food and decides to limit the food available to C2. C2 becomes starved. C2 then decides to attack C1 to get food.

As you can see through that example and other examples such as the American revolution or the French revolution, fault does not always lie at who shoots first.

As I have shown a tremendous amounts of time, Hamas most likely fired rockets at Israel because of the siege placed on Gaza where Gazans are going hungry and lack medical supplies. I have heard other reports where Israel led a secret mission into Gaza but I can not back it up so I will not use it but that does remain a possibility.

This situation is not as simple as "Hamas shoots first so it is their fault", this is a very large string of cause and effects. If you elect a government that says they will destroy Israel, Israel will start a blockade. If you blockade Gaza and prevent them from getting adequate food, they will fire on Israel. If Hamas fires on Israel, Israel will unlease a ground attack. If Israel unleashes a ground attack, Gaza will......

[Undertoad]

....lose the ability to attack Israel, when the Hamas leadership and infrastructure to do so are gone, thereby producing the right conditions for the 750 trucks per day to once again continue crossing the Israeli border.


Feel free to put your own ellipisis up and make a prediction. It should be easy, since you believe the chain of events is so predictable.

[OnyxCougar]

Actually, I can say this is Hamas' fault. Living conditions are terrible, food supplies are short and all the rest of that. However, there was another option.

That option was: not firing on Israel after the 6 month cease fire was over and saying, "See, we can be civilized people. Let's talk about sending in more food and making things better for the people we're supposed to be governing."

Instead, they fired rockets into Israel and acted all surprised when Israel decided enough is enough and spanked them. Hard. Then they go crying to the rest of the world about "poor us, they are killing our civilians". Should have thought of that before you launched the rockets, dumbass.

While it sucks to be a civilian in this situation, they are the ones that elected Hamas to rule there, in the midst of shouts about Death to Israel. They have placed themselves into this situation. They have made the choices to get themselves here. Now it's time to pay for those choices.

[DanaC]

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

This situation is not as simple as "Hamas shoots first so it is their fault", this is a very large string of cause and effects. If you elect a government that says they will destroy Israel, Israel will start a blockade. If you blockade Gaza and prevent them from getting adequate food, they will fire on Israel. If Hamas fires on Israel, Israel will unlease a ground attack. If Israel unleashes a ground attack, Gaza will......

I think that's about as good a round-up of the situation as any Pierce.


[eta] Wtf...Onyx? *laughs* hallo. Didn't know you were back down here!

[classicman]

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

they are the ones that elected Hamas to rule there, in the midst of shouts about Death to Israel. They have placed themselves into this situation. They have made the choices to get themselves here. Now it's time to pay for those choices.

I prefer this description.

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Feel free to put your own ellipisis up and make a prediction. It should be easy, since you believe the chain of events is so predictable.

I wasn't making a prediction, I was showing the cause and effect of the situation. I have many possible predictions but not one that I believe will happen because I honestly have no idea.

This is the information I have:

• History of the situation
• Knowledge that many Gazans are supporting Hamas based on the situation and not necessary political ideals
• Knowledge that Hamas tends to see themselves as reactionary and the Gazans do as well
• Hamas and Fatah are not working with eachother
• Israel did not accomplish its objectives in Lebanon
• Israel is facing a different situation and have said to learn from their mistakes

So based on this knowledge, its reasonable to expect the following to occur. Lets first say that Israel does accomplish its objectives.

• Gaza will have lost its leadership and need a new one
• The blockade on Gaza will most likely go away

That can lead us to some diverse conclusions. It is possible that a well fed Gaza, assuming that happens, could change its views on Israel but I would say that is doubtful. It would be similar to seeing George Bush do something the liberal population agree with and see the liberal population change their views on him.

So then Gaza will need new leadership. Fatah is doubtful to regain control without force since one of Hamas objectives was to not be Fatah. That also means that since Fatah was seen as corrupt and not harsh enough on Israel, which makes it doubtful that the new leadership will be any different than Hamas. Remember, even if Israel do get rid of Gaza, they cannot get rid of the feelings held by the population. And also remember, most Gazans do not necessary support the ideals of Hamas but support them anyways.

That was only a limited amount of the possibilities but it can go either way. Those are the reasons I expect the situation to keep the same but only get more intense and not the other way around. It is possible that I am wrong as well. Only time can tell.

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

Actually, I can say this is Hamas' fault. Living conditions are terrible, food supplies are short and all the rest of that. However, there was another option.

That option was: not firing on Israel after the 6 month cease fire was over and saying, "See, we can be civilized people. Let's talk about sending in more food and making things better for the people we're supposed to be governing."

Instead, they fired rockets into Israel and acted all surprised when Israel decided enough is enough and spanked them. Hard. Then they go crying to the rest of the world about "poor us, they are killing our civilians". Should have thought of that before you launched the rockets, dumbass.

While it sucks to be a civilian in this situation, they are the ones that elected Hamas to rule there, in the midst of shouts about Death to Israel. They have placed themselves into this situation. They have made the choices to get themselves here. Now it's time to pay for those choices.

I see a few holes in your logic.

• You assume you can control your ability to be "civilized" in harsh situations.
• You do not state why it was unreasonable for Gazans to elect Hamas.

Lets look at the economic crisis situation in the United States. For the United States, I want to show how quickly and strongly blame is thrown around. For Republicans, most blame the Democrats. For the Democrats, most blame Republicans. I'm assuming you think citizens of the United States are civilized, but as you can see, we are fully irrational when it comes to who is at fault at our own circumstances. Now, the situation in the United States is NOWHERE near as bad as the situation in Gaza. So what gives you any credibility to blame the Gazans? If the majority of Americans were starving, I think it would be very hard to believe that violence will not be introduced.

Second, lets look at the last few presidential elections. Many foreigners do not like the United States because of their presidents. George Bush is one of the most hated figures in the world right now so it would be easy to for foreigners to say that the United States should just not have elected Bush. But, looking at the past two elections, we can see that it was not that simple. Both Kerry and Gore were seen as inadequate and many were voting for one so the other would not win.

So back to the holes in logic I see.

• Do you have any credibility to show that you, or Americans in general, would react any differently to the situation they are presented in.
• You state that Gazans are at fault for electing Hamas but you do not give the reasons why Gazans elected Hamas. Please state them.

*Note, as I have said many times in this thread, I do not think Israel is at sole fault either.

[OnyxCougar]

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

I see a few holes in your logic.

• You assume you can control your ability to be "civilized" in harsh situations.
• You do not state why it was unreasonable for Gazans to elect Hamas.

Harsh is relative. What I consider harsh some may consider easy, and vice versa, and for various reasons (culture, human rights, etc).

I didn't say it was unreasonable for Gazans to elect Hamas. I said in essence that a majority of Gazans elected Hamas for what they represented. Hamas followed up with their rhetoric and started messing with Israel again, just like they said they would do.

Getting their asses spanked is the consequence of the whole Hamas way of thinking: i.e. that firing missiles/rockets/whatever into Israel is going to in any way shape or form HELP the people that they are supposed to be governing (I'm assuming this is agreed upon to mean furthering their cause in a way that benefits the people within that cause).

If the majority of Americans chose candidate X to be president, than the same majority of Americans deserve the consequences brought about by that choice.

Does it suck for the minority who wanted candidate Y? Sure it does.

But you can bet that if an Al-Qaida terrorist wanted to use my roof to fire missiles into anywhere, he'd have to kill me first. And then I'd be dead, so I wouldn't care when the return fire destroyed my house.

Lets look at the economic crisis situation in the United States. For the United States, I want to show how quickly and strongly blame is thrown around. For Republicans, most blame the Democrats. For the Democrats, most blame Republicans. I'm assuming you think citizens of the United States are civilized, but as you can see, we are fully irrational when it comes to who is at fault at our own circumstances.

You're right. And since I am neither Repulican or Democrat, I blame BOTH of them AND the American people who have lain dormant like sheep. If the American people were to stand up and say "Fuck this, we're not having a war in Iraq!" there wouldn't be. Instead it's hand wringing and mouth talk that means nothing.

Don't get me wrong, I *respect* Hamas for standing up for what they believe in, regardless of the cost. But Hamas and the people who ELECTED Hamas to be their representatives to the world are going to pay that cost, as terrible and as brutal, and as unfair to the innocent as that may be.

So what gives you any credibility to blame the Gazans?

Sorry, I don't have any credibility, just like you. I'm just another schlub with her own opinions. Very very few people have any credibility these days.

If the majority of Americans were starving, I think it would be very hard to believe that violence will not be introduced.

Really? You think is there is no violence in America?? The United States is one of the most violent countries on the planet. And who are the most violent people in America? Poor, starving, uneducated people with no hope of a better future. Ghetto kids. Gang kids. Unemployed IT professionals, and even some black folks.

Second, lets look at the last few presidential elections. Many foreigners do not like the United States because of their presidents. George Bush is one of the most hated figures in the world right now so it would be easy to for foreigners to say that the United States should just not have elected Bush.

The president is not elected by popular vote. The popular vote doesn't mean a thing. I'm sure Radar can tell you all about it.

So back to the holes in logic I see.

• <snip>
• You state that Gazans are at fault for electing Hamas but you do not give the reasons why Gazans elected Hamas. Please state them.

Well if Gazans aren't at fault for electing Hamas, who is? Are you saying that a bunch of non Gazans elected Hamas? (that was sarcastic.)

I don't *care* why they elected Hamas. The end result is that they did. The missiles don't care. The bombs don't care. Apperantly, the people in charge in Israel don't care. The point is, the Gazans elected an extremist military faction to be their voice. That voice spoke to Israel and the world with violence and hatred. Now they face the consequences.

[analogy]
If I poke my neighbors dog with a stick every single day for months and years, I HAVE NO RIGHT to be either surprised or pissed off at the dog when it bites me, nor do I have the right to petition the neighborhood to have the dog put down because it bites people, nor should I make the neighbor pay for my medical care to treat the dog bite.
[/analogy]

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

Okay I see your point now Bruce.


Israel stated that they plan an occupation that will last a long time. They want to completely wipe out Hamas, which I would think is impossible. Even if they do, its likely that an even more extreme group will take over.

Maybe, maybe not. There really is no evidence to support that notion. So far it looks like Iraq is coming around, there is no reason to think that The Gaza could not do the same. As I said in an earlier post, Israel may be getting ready to go through their own little Iraq as well and all the pain that went with it.

[Aliantha]

Someone should just go and blow the whole lot of them up. Either that or just leave the bastards to it. Let them obliterate themselves.

There is no point debating the issue. There are no 'rights' in this issue. Only huge, mountainous, bloody wrongs!

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Aliantha

Someone should just go and blow the whole lot of them up. Either that or just leave the bastards to it. Let them obliterate themselves.

At this point I have to support this. Isolate the lot of them, no support in material or monies, and let them all go at it. Those with the most toys at the end win.