View on the recent Gaza/Israel stikes

[TheMercenary]

Your lack of overwhelming evidence only translates into nothing more than a guess.

[DanaC]

An educated guess though.

[TheMercenary]

Not.

[piercehawkeye45]

I based my guess on history and evidence presented towards me. But that guess has more supporting evidence than any other theory, including yours.

Gaza was occupied by Israel for 38 years and they pulled out 4 years ago. Israel has also stated that they do not plan on occupying Gaza. I gave two large differences between the United States situation in Iraq versus Israel and Palestine. Mine at least has some support to it, yours is just a shot in the dark.

[TheMercenary]

Still a guess.

[piercehawkeye45]

A report came out by the International Crisis Group today. So we can sort some of the questionable aspects out.

A. The Ceasefire

• Six-month ceasefire began on June 19th, 2008
• The ceasefire was never strong and was destined to fail. Israel wanted a ceasefire while still blocking crossing with Gaza and Egypt and maintaining a blockade while Hamas wanted a ceasefire with no blockades on either Gaza or the crossing.
• Rockets were fired in Israel from Gaza in June but no action was taken. A separate movement claimed responsibility and said it was in response to two Palestinian deaths in West Bank and Hamas encouraged them to stop. Another rocket attack from Gaza into Israel was claimed by Fatah, an oppositional movement to Hamas. Later, more rockets were fired but no one claimed responsibility.
• On November 4th, Israeli troops, from Israeli Intelligence, crossed into Gaza using a secret tunnel made by Hamas to prevent a kidnapping of an Israeli soldier killing 6 Gazans.
• On December 13th, Israel said they would renew the ceasefire but Hamas was reluctant.
• On December 19th, ceasefire ended.

So it was in fact Israel who did actually break the ceasefire.

B. Why ceasefire was not renewed.

• Opening the routes to commerce was Hamas’s main goal in its cease-fire with Israel, just as ending the rocket fire was Israel’s central aim. But while rocket fire did go down drastically in the fall to 15 to 20 a month from hundreds a month, Israel said it would not permit trade to begin again because the rocket fire had not completely stopped and because Hamas continued to smuggle weapons from Egypt through desert tunnels. Hamas said this was a violation of the agreement, a sign of Israel’s intentions and cause for further rocket fire. On Wednesday [24 Dec 08], some 70 rockets hit Israel over 24 hours, in a distinct increase in intensity

• As the date approached, senior Hamas leaders increasingly made clear that, faced with the alternative between “starvation and fighting”, they would choose the latter, an unsubtle indication that they would intensify rocket fire in an attempt to force Israel to relax the siege.

As shown in the first quote, both sides seemed to have not lived up to the agreements. The second quote shows why Hamas did not continue with the ceasefire.


So as we can see, both sides had fault on starting this conflict and both sides seem to be acting as the reactionary.


TheMercenary-
While an occupation of Gaza may happen, it will only happen because Israelis are forced too, not because of a plan.

In the first days of the war, a former Israeli deputy foreign minister said, “the last thing the leadership wants is to be in a situation where it has to rule Gaza. If we don’t, what will replace Hamas? Abbas will find it difficult to take control on the back of Israeli bayonets”

Even then...there is major skeptism

What would the day after be? Would Israel reoccupy Gaza and rule a population made all the more hostile by the military assault that preceded it? Would it try to hand power over to a discredited PA, which quickly would be viewed as stooges? Which international forces would be willing to come in and take the reins over from us? And if the day after we leave 200,000 Gazans rally in support of Hamas, who do you think will come out the victor?

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

A report came out by the International Crisis Group today. So we can sort some of the questionable aspects out.

A. The Ceasefire

• Six-month ceasefire began on June 19th, 2008
• The ceasefire was never strong and was destined to fail. Israel wanted a ceasefire while still blocking crossing with Gaza and Egypt and maintaining a blockade while Hamas wanted a ceasefire with no blockades on either Gaza or the crossing.
• Rockets were fired in Israel from Gaza in June but no action was taken. A separate movement claimed responsibility and said it was in response to two Palestinian deaths in West Bank and Hamas encouraged them to stop. Another rocket attack from Gaza into Israel was claimed by Fatah, an oppositional movement to Hamas. Later, more rockets were fired but no one claimed responsibility.
• On November 4th, Israeli troops, from Israeli Intelligence, crossed into Gaza using a secret tunnel made by Hamas to prevent a kidnapping of an Israeli soldier killing 6 Gazans.
• On December 13th, Israel said they would renew the ceasefire but Hamas was reluctant.
• On December 19th, ceasefire ended.

So it was in fact Israel who did actually break the ceasefire.

What? But getting a kidnapped soldier back? Are you nuts?

B. Why ceasefire was not renewed. As shown in the first quote, both sides seemed to have not lived up to the agreements. The second quote shows why Hamas did not continue with the ceasefire.
So as we can see, both sides had fault on starting this conflict and both sides seem to be acting as the reactionary.

Only 15 or 20 rockets a month is NOT a ceasefire, not even close. Can you even imagine what it's like to live under that threat? Like London in WW II, knowing they are coming but never where or when. No, Hamas didn't live up to the agreement by a long shot, so why would the Jews? Their only shot at convincing the Pals to stop was hold up the trucks.

[piercehawkeye45]

First, I only displayed the facts. Israel did cross into Gaza but Hamas did not claim any of the rocket fires. Those are the facts. They can be justified to fit either political side but those are the facts. Also, It was not to get a soldier back. Israeli intelligence got word of a supposed kidnapping and they went into Gaza to stop it. I do not know of validity of the intelligence.

The rockets might not have been Hamas related. Two other groups took responsibility for them for two early attacks but no one has claimed responsibility for all rockets following.

*keep in mind all above are facts from the latest sources

Only 15 or 20 rockets a month is NOT a ceasefire, not even close. Can you even imagine what it's like to live under that threat? Like London in WW II, knowing they are coming but never where or when. No, Hamas didn't live up to the agreement by a long shot, so why would the Jews? Their only shot at convincing the Pals to stop was hold up the trucks.

Nothing was said to imply that Israel started the blockade because of the rockets. The rockets were mainly ignored because there were no reports of Hamas breaking the truce.

Using the same argument as the reason Israel invaded Gaza, you can say that by blockading the Gazans of the most basic supplies, what did Israel expect from Hamas? If you starve a population they are going to fight back. If you fire rockets on a stronger enemy's civilians they are going to fight back. Like I've always said, all three sides have faults here and mostly everything is defensive.

And no, I can not image what it is like to live under that constant threat and I also cannot imagine what it is like to live under starving conditions as well.

[DanaC]

Not just starvation. Palestinian society has ground to a halt in every conceivable way. Electricity, water supplies, medicines, access to places of employment (for the handful who have it) all erratic and subject to sudden withdrawal/destruction. It's also the violence and humiliation routinely meted out to ordinary Palestinian civilians as they try to make there way through the growing network of military roadblocks. It's the humiliation, for example, of living and working in a market street, above which is an Israeli settlement who drop their raw garbage down onto your heads. They've had to place wire meshing across the street to block it.

Day after day, year after year, ordinary people are subjected to humiliation, fear and violence. And there's nowhere they can go. No where they can take their kids. All blocked in. Somewhere on their street, or in their part of the camp, a Hamas fighter primes a weapon. I don't know what goes on three houses away from me, or in the house next door.

They were misfortunate enough to live in a place that is under permanent siege. A place where the resistance to that siege is embedded within their town and the families that live there. Judging by many people in this thread, that simple piece of misfortune renders them unworthy of even the most basic human sympathy or anger or their behalf.

[OnyxCougar]

Originally Posted by DanaC

They were misfortunate enough to live in a place that is under permanent siege. A place where the resistance to that siege is embedded within their town and the families that live there. Judging by many people in this thread, that simple piece of misfortune renders them unworthy of even the most basic human sympathy or anger or their behalf.

Any sympathy and anger I may have on their behalf is assassinated by every single missile their chosen leaders fire at someone else. I don't think anyone here believes that life in Gaza is easy or fun.

What are they doing to make things better? How are they trying to accomplish peace and stability? Firing rockets throughout a cease fire and even more afterwards (in the face of overwhelmingly superior firepower, money and numbers) is stupid, not deserving of my sympathy.

If the Palestinians were to be totally pacifistic, and still Israel blockaded them and held them under siege, the world would be outraged and Israel would be forced to open up the borders. But the Palestinians have proven time and time and time again that they can't be trusted to keep their word, but you CAN count on them to be violent.

I don't deserve sympathy for my dog bite.

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

You favor the Pals...? awesome.
-- You hate what Israel has done to them...? granted.
---- You support a terrorist organization ruling them and attacking Israel... destroying Gaza and killing Palestinians to do it...? you've lost the plot.

Hahahaha. Do you really think I repeat "both sides have faults in this" just so I sound unbiased to put forward my biased pro-Palestinians pro-Hamas opinions? If I thought Israel was at sole fault I would have said it and my posts would have been much different.

I have been pointing out the pro-Israeli posts because I disagree with them. This for example...

Originally Posted by Classicman

I agree with you Dana that it must be really difficult to live under those circumstances. Blaming Israel for their plight is not the answer nor is firing rockets at them going to make things better . . . only worse.

There is nothing wrong in terms of facts in this post. But he has made assumptions on what the Palestinians demand and what the actions of Hamas are.

Palestinians do not want to live as dogs. They are currently dependent on humanitarian sources for survival. Classicman is making the claim that Palestinians should be content with this and stop the fighting so they can live their lives as dogs without disturbing the Israelis. [sarcasm]Hell maybe they can learn to be civilized as well like the Israelis if they took up their culture and religion[/sarcasm].

Hamas is not looking for peace until the state of Israel is taken over. Basically, they would like to see the situation switched. They would like to see the Jews living like dogs so the Muslims can live in peace.

Maybe you can understand now why I don't side with either of those groups because neither side is realistic. The Palestinians have shown they will fight before they live as dogs and we know the Jews will fight to the death before they live like dogs again. Both sides are unrealistic and will bring more fighting and death.

I do not go against your views because I hate the Jews, even though I strongly disagree with Zionism, but because it cannot happen. That is why I said there are faults on both sides, neither ideology can lead to a peaceful solution.


If you still side with the belief that the Palestinians should give up their attempts at self-sufficiency so both sides can live in peace, I honestly don't really care. You can believe that a peaceful solution can come out of this and maybe you are right, but I disagree. I do not see a solution coming out of this and hence my views.

Originally Posted by Undertoad

And one does notice that they are importing missile parts and not, you know, food and medicine and other such goods.

Are you serious? Everyone knows that Hamas was importing weapons. It wasn't a secret by any means. If it makes you feel any better, the reason why Hamas agreed to the six month ceasefire was to gain complete control over Gaza. This could only happen if the population was fed (siege) and Hamas was supplied (border crossings). Israel provided neither so Hamas attacked, probably actually as bait. Israel took the bait and now support for Hamas has grown throughout Gaza and even now the West Bank. Many news sources are now criticizing Israel's actions and and foreign leaders are telling Israel to stop. If Hamas gets taken out from their government role by Israel, they will return to an underground movement. It might be possible that Israel will be able to suppress Hamas, but I guess we will have to see.

[classicman]

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

Classicman is making the claim that Palestinians should be content with this and stop the fighting so they can live their lives as dogs without disturbing the Israelis.

I NEVER made that claim, far from it. No one should "live like dogs."

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

Hamas is not looking for peace until the state of Israel is taken over. Basically, they would like to see the situation switched. They would like to see the Jews living like dogs so the Muslims can live in peace.

What's their plan B? Cuz history has proved that one isn't going to work.

[Undertoad]

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

Hahahaha. Do you really think I repeat "both sides have faults in this" just so I sound unbiased to put forward my biased pro-Palestinians pro-Hamas opinions?

Although Dana made it sound like I was directing at you, I wasn't. I was pointing out that you were wrong about the cease-fire earlier but my last message was directed to all.

Israel took the bait and now support for Hamas has grown throughout Gaza and even now the West Bank.

cite

Many news sources are now criticizing Israel's actions

1) European news sources?
1a) They haven't failed to criticize everything Israel has ever done. An Israeli picks his nose in Tel Aviv and the French report it as an offensive against innocent boogers.
2) This is confused, isn't it? News sources report facts, opinion sources criticize. When the news sources criticize we can no longer trust their facts.

If Hamas gets taken out from their government role by Israel, they will return to an underground movement. It might be possible that Israel will be able to suppress Hamas, but I guess we will have to see.

"Hamas has nothing left but rockets"

[DanaC]

Sundae now's when you should be slapping me....

[classicman]

I agree with you Dana that it must be really difficult to live under those circumstances. Blaming Israel for their plight is not the answer nor is firing rockets at them going to make things better . . . only worse.