Bitcoin

[slang]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

Of course! He'd be so happy to know I have a friend who read it. He thinks about as much of my politics as you do. Which is funny, because you're both assuming I hold a position I don't

Ok, I was confused about your position by your apparent support of continuing the witch hunt even after a long and thorough process. By a guy that would get a Nobel prize for digging up solid evidence of anything but that hasn’t . Maybe tomorrow.

Plus you seem to support big government. I’m not sure if I ever met a right leaning person that wanted more government.
But I’ll take your word.

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

That's what I was saying. You were the one who said, "Before that disconnect [going off the Gold Standard] one wouldn't need gold since a paper dollar was effectively gold.

You are correct. I have mis-written.

Until ’71 foreign held dollars were redeemable. But not as an American citizen, only as an institutional holder, IIRC.

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

" I'm saying the Gold Standard had nothing to do with it. Prior to 1932, people had gold, and they had plenty of guns, too. And the guns didn't do a thing to stop or reverse the government's confiscation policy. They didn't just say "we're going to take it," they actually successfully took it, for over 40 years.

This is directly out of the book but it’s kindle here so the page numbers are different than the paperback so I can’t site them.

Part II.
Gold as Contraband II.
Public Compliance

“…It can be surmised that the total amount of gold withheld in violation of the law was at least as great as the amount voluntarily surrendered to the government, thus setting the level of compliance between April 1933 and January 1934 at no more than 50%. Whether this represents a governmental success or failure is left for the reader to decide.“

Your position stated above is that the gov’t actually did it, not just spoke of doing it. Despite the public having guns.

Aside from those who smuggled gold to Canada and those that chose to hide their gold, less than 50% of the public complied to Executive Order 6102, as seen in the book “Confiscation – Gold As Contraband 1933-1975 by Mr. F”

But what about compliance AFTER January 1934?

“…There are however two additional factors to consider when estimating compliance rates. First the face value of all the gold coins turned into the treasury between 1934 and 1960 was less than $12 million, or roughly 4% of the total outstanding as of January 1934.

Nearly all of this was reclaimed by discovery and seizure rather than voluntary surrender, so it’s clear that the early rates of noncompliance held steady even after the passage of the Gold Reserve Act.

Second, the Federal Reserve figures only account for the United States legal tender gold coins. There is no way to estimate compliance regarding gold contraband generally classified as bullion, which includes bars, medallions, nuggets, and most importantly, foreign coins.

The United States was a nation of immigrants, and what wealth they had was often brought over in various forms of gold and precious stones. Given this, the level of compliance was almost certainly much lower than 50%. As with other black markets, the market for owning, trading, and smuggling contraband gold was difficult – if not impossible – for the federal government to control.“

Yah-but…what about after 1960?

Criminal Prosecutions

At the same time that the Treasury Department was expanding the list of permissible “gold coins of recognized special value, “ the Department of Justice was continuing to pursue criminal prosecution for the mere possession of small amounts of gold bullion.

This included cases involving gold coins not exempted as collector’s items, such as the Mexican 50 peso restrikes dated 1947. Chilean 100 pesos, and Peruvian 100 soles. One of these cases, heard in the District Court for Southern California in 1962, attracted a level of notoriety that was unwanted by the government, but welcomed by gold advocates.

The defendants in the United States v. James Briddle and Harold Mitchell were accused of holding approximately $700 worth of gold bullion, in violation of President Roosevelt’s Executive Order 6260 of August 28, 1933.

After reviewing the historical and legal basis for Roosevelt’s order, district judge William C. Mathes considered the nature of the national emergency as it existed in 1933, and whether it continued to exist nearly 30 years later. As he wrote in his Memorandum of Decision dated December 27, 1962:

Certainly a “national emergency” of an economic nature existed in 1933 at the time of Executive Order 6260 was promulgated. The withdrawl and hoarding of gold threatened the nation’s entire economy.

It was against this panic that the order was directed. For this reason, the Congress obviously felt that stiff criminal penalties … were justified by the crisis confronting the nation.

…It is a simple matter, of course, to date the commencement of a “national emergency” by it’s declaration. But unless the ending be marked by proclamation also, it is sometimes difficult indeed to determine. Yet always at some point the “national emergency” does end, and the orders which find their authority in the existence of the emergency lost their validity.

Judge Mathes went on to note that this line of reasoning was applied in a 1954 case ( Bauer v. United States), but that the Court of Appeals refused to hear the case due to concerns over jurisdiction.

Judge Mathes declared that his court was the proper jurisdiction, and that indeed a national emergency no longer existed. The defendants’ motion to dismiss the indictment was granted, and the gold involved was returned to it’s owners.”

It seems like this source material contradicts your assertion that they “took it for 40 years.” Gold coins were legalized and hidden holders effectively pardoned in 1954. For non compliance to a law that clearly violated personal property protections, even if the USSC had not heard the case.

Bullion was still basically useless by policy until later, in 1975, but for the most part if you hid your gold bullion, eventually you could redeem it for financial gain, by the public law 93-373.

That officially legalized selling, purchasing and dealing with gold in all forms in the US and abroad. By then bullion was legal and there was a market for it
.
Only ONE person was successfully prosecuted by the confiscation. If you were to have hidden or exported your gold you would most surely not be prosecuted OR have it illegally stolen.

So of the US population of approximately 125,578,563 ( in 1933 ) divided by 2 (approx 50%) equals 62,789,281.5 did not comply in 1933.

It doesn’t appear as if the Man was terribly effective at enforcing the original confiscation. Or the hidden or exported gold thereafter.

[slang]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

No individual will ever take on the government with their guns--not a conservative against a progressive government, not a progressive against a conservative government.

I have a distant relative that sorta did. He is from Texas. There was a stand off. Feds decided it wasn’t worth the work, risk to staff and bad press of having a gun battle with a upstanding combat vet.

He left the country comfortably with money already moved. He had a home abroad. Wife and kids came with him.

A home that was not terribly expensive but fun and comfortable and out of jurisdiction.

So for the next 6 or 7 years The Man would contact him threatening him regularly to which he would reply something like “are you going to send the Marines to come get me if I don’t comply?”

Eventually the message that the Man sent was, “ok, you can come back to the US if you just pay this fine.” To which he responded something along the lines of, “Go fuck yourself, I could be here for the next 50 years. It’s kinda nice!”

So eventually he did return without paying any fines or any other invasion hassles. 8 or 10 years though. The issue was completely resolved and both went their merry way for many years without further incident.

They didn’t “gotcha” him. They could have but they were not in the right on this situation. Had they pressed on this they did not have the ability to prevent the facts from getting out. That the problem was completely fabricated from day one.

There’s a lot of that going around these days.

And another distant relative, also from Texas had a similar situation but was far more diplomatic with The Man. He was much more sophisticated that Uncle. He received a communication but was not nearly as abrasive as Uncle.

They went back and forth and back and forth and back and forth and back and forth and back and forth and back and forth and back and forth and back and forth and back and forth. Each time he was supplying more data for the proof that there wasn’t a problem.
Eventually they froze his account and assets too but they didn’t threaten him with troops or agents.

He is also a guy with means, but also assets out of the system so that in his case, it was troubling that there was a problem in their minds but he had tons of proof to make his case. He just kept right on living his life with more stress, but was not completely helpless like the average guy would be.

Eventually his account and assets were unfrozen too. No fines or the like.

They didn’t “gotcha” him either.

The power of the gov’t is a mighty force to be sure. But what the system wants is for you to be defenseless. Then they just send you a demand note, you shit your pants, write a check and everyone is “happy”. Well, you aren’t but that’s fine. You’re just a surf.

Have a backup plan in place ready to go. Then most likely if things get rough you shouldn’t be completely smashed flat.

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

It's an unrealistic macho fantasy.

It’s fantasy in your world. In my world it’s family history.

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

I'm not saying you shouldn't have guns because of it--have guns if you want. I'm saying they won't do you any good.

Not the most important item, you are correct on that. Testicular fortitude, a brain, having tools available that can’t easily been turned off with a keystoke, planning and training would be good.

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

Likewise, going outside the financial system is nice, and I'm not saying you shouldn't do it--do it, by all means!

It’s really not all that big of a deal. Depending on how you do it, the Man could actually benefit as well. Just a safety precaution. Crazy weather, alien life form attack, crazy government lusting for control and money it’s not legally entitled to.

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

People going outside the system is what put food on our table for my entire childhood.

I’m very happy to know that citizen criminals avoiding the allegedly corrupt system and unlawful control systems were a benefit to you and your family.

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

What I'm saying is that you only have that option because they allow it. If they decide to shut down your outside-the-system gig, they will win.

There’s a remedy to that, the constitution. Yes, it’s an illusion to make people believe that they are free so that they may be harvested by all the systems living off the citizen and government.

Always remember that gold and silver are the only legal money in the US. It’s not vague. Not followed but it’s in there.

[slang]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

Then they'd better get voting. Because it takes a whole lot to get a Civil War going, and when it really comes down to it, the vast majority of that 150 million people (on either side) are not ready to die for what they want.

People are surely not willing to die ( at this point or to fight to the death or even to exhaustion ) but are they willing to do without modern life’s gizmos? They could survive in a world without them, but would they want to? A modern civil war might be as simple as making people uncomfortable. Inconvenienced.

Everything is fine as long as booze, fat food, cable TV and air conditioning are available. If one breaks any of those systems, then maybe people might get angry enough to do something drastic. Like yell out the window or some other useless resistance.

Anything short of that, it's just too much energy.

And what many are learning now is that even when you vote, you don’t get what you legally should get. What you voted for. You don’t get what is legal. Even if there is legal precedence. Even if it’s a fundamental understanding.

Like Illegal immigration.

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

We fight and we posture and we shake our fists at the computer screen, but at the end of the day, that's not what restrains government, nor is going behind the government's back.

Can you somehow see me right now? By any chance?

Disobedience? I think we covered that above. It's not always "crazy" as people think it is.

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

If they decide they want you, they're going to get you.

With very few exceptions, yes. But only with the help of the mainstream media. Either by complete omission or outright lying about the details of why they want cha.

Some people that I know did actually benefit from that long hidden storage, after 1975, when there were too many people to “get gotten” at that time.

Grampa hid the loot in his house with a note. Grandson eventually found the note and loot and benefitted. In this case grandson benefitted enough to change the trajectory of his family.

He changed the loot into USD to make a deposit on a bank loan on a small apartment house. And then another.

He didn’t fall into the “gotcha”. And it wasn’t as if the system didn’t benefit. Win win?

I met another man who did something similar around 2005. His gold wasn’t holding gold from EO 6102 but financing was difficult or expensive for him for whatever reason.

He bought 50 oz of gold when it was cheap and no one wanted it. I was invited to look at his 50 oz just before they were deposited for a deal that he made for some real estate. He was very excited. I just observed in amazement. Fifty oz in 50 little glasses on a cart. It was great, a rich guy that appreciated gold as much as I do.Without being a bullion dealer.

He told me “I cannot imagine not making a great profit on this deal with the low price of real estate now and the high price of gold”

He was a professional investor not some gun finger spinning jackass™. Did he get the “gotcha”?

Only if the “gotcha” means you’re going to make a great profit.

[Clodfobble]

I'll tell him you said so.

[slang]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

I'll tell him you said so.

Maybe we can talk about an signed copy after I cycle back to the US?

[Clodfobble]

Sure, anytime. He's 71, but he's in good health, and I know he keeps a few pre-signed around the house. So take your time.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Gold is great for electronics and makes pretty jewelry but other than that it's not of much use. The reason it's valuable is the faith that it won't decrease and likely increase in value. That's right the value is based on faith and tradition, the same as currency. If there's a food shortage, I'm not parting with mine for gold or currency.

[slang]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Gold is great for electronics and makes pretty jewelry but other than that it's not of much use.

It's difficult to argue against your opinion unless there is some type of crisis. Long or short.

The two reasons that I appreciate gold is that it's concentrated money and if done properly, there's no counter party risk.

Most normal people have a pretty secure financial life, you live here, you do this, this is yours, these people know you and have for many years. There is very little tolerance for uncertainty.

If you don't have those circumstances something very valuable that you can physically carry with you may be reassuring.

Why is gold valuable?

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

The reason it's valuable is the faith that it won't decrease and likely increase in value.

It does decrease as it did in the 90s. When credit is everywhere, things were hot and very few people had any concern with the currency.

When fiat is expanded, it generally increases in value.

Gold was a canary of sorts that a citizen could evaluate the currency. If gold shot up in price there was a problem. The spot price was a "dashboard" idiot light.

There have been methods to suppress the spot price so that even those that watch for the idiot light never see it because it never comes on.

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

That's right the value is based on faith and tradition, the same as currency.

When things crash, historically it's rebooted with gold and silver.

Silver is a different animal as it's used widely in industry. After the event or crisis is over silver tends to increase. Holding silver boosts your investments for the recovery. Industry uses go up again.

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

If there's a food shortage, I'm not parting with mine for gold or currency.

If there's a severe food shortage, I'm looking to assist someone with my excess food for someone that is capable of helping with security. Security tends to be difficult while you aren't fed. Hungry people are more likely to do things that are more risky.

You don't have to be some crazy assed para military setup. It can be as simple as holding out extra food, could easily be as cheap as rice, for that neighbor that you talk to a few times a year.

Another set of eyes to pay attention. Someone watching so that you might sleep soundly with all the additional stress. Don't ever let them know what you have but share some food and create an incentive for them for them to help you get through this so that they may also get through this.

This theme works well on very small and very large problems. Short and long.

You may have gold and silver at the start of the problem and that would help you after the problem has been solved. You wouldn't start at zero. Asset protection. But without food you'll give it away or fight battles you cannot possibly win to get it.

Of course, this is all just MY opinion and perspective. Years of comparing notes with military guys and preppers could be completely wrong for the circumstances that may exist today.

[slang]

This online Kindle from Amazon is so cheap and easy why not try another book? This time on the thread topic.

$2.99! Where have I been? This is great.

Blockchain: Ultimate guide to understanding blockchain, bitcoin, cryptocurrencies, smart contracts and the future of money.
Mark Gates
June 2017

[tw]

Originally Posted by slang

Blockchain: Ultimate guide to understanding blockchain, bitcoin, cryptocurrencies, smart contracts and the future of money.

Blockchain - the reason why Bitcoin cannot scale to what is necessary in the economy. A block chain, that provides secure transactions, is incapable of meeting scale and liquidity demands of today's (and tomorrow's) economies.

[Undertoad]

wacko extremist concepts of 'good vs evil'

Unit 731

I defy anyone to read that link, and come back here and tell us evil doesn't exist.

[slang]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

I defy anyone to read that link, and come back here and tell us evil doesn't exist.

It didn't seem possible before reading from the link, but maybe bean counters aren't so bad after all.

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by UT's link

Researchers mostly slipped back into civilian life in occupied Japan as if nothing had ever happened, many of them becoming prominent members of university faculty.

The scary thing about evil is it's a "capacity for," rather than an inherent behavior pattern that makes itself known from the get-go. How do you figure out who has the capacity for evil? And what do you do with that person if they aren't currently perpetrating evil?

[Undertoad]

We all have the capacity.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

We all have the capacity.

US Army did same to some 60,000 black, Puerto Rican, and Japanese= American soldiers in the 1940s. Intentionally exposing them to toxic gases. This has remains secret until 1993 and is only recently been exposed for the scope and inhumanity that was implemented. Apparently other America experiments also existed and are still secret.

Milgram's Electric Shock experiment in Yale demonstrated that most anyone will be as evil if ordered to do so.