View on the recent Gaza/Israel stikes

[Pooka]

The problem is ... this is a war that has literally been going on for thousands of years... can't think of any reason they'd give it up now... it is all they as a culture have ever known... on all sides.

I'm not saying it should be allowed to continue and I'm not saying that it isn't a sorry situation and a real tragedy for the new lives born into that mess, I certianly wouldn't want to live in that chaos, but every time the U.S. goes and sticks its nose into shite over there we create new enemies. Remember Osama was once our ally.

What solution could possibly be offered here? These groups have hated eachother for so long it is part of there genetic make up... how can we expect them to enter into and uphold agreements that require respect and trust when neither party will acknowledge the other's humanity and right to exist.

[Flint]

...

[OnyxCougar]

And now a word from Europe. Funny how we're not hearing about attacks against Muslims, huh? Not funny as in strange, funny as in incredibly sad.

Gaza conflict spreads to Europe with Jews attacked
Tuesday, January 6, 2009 9:50 AM EST
The Associated Press
By JOHN LEICESTER Associated Press Writer


PARIS (AP) — Signs are mounting that the conflict in Gaza is starting to spill over into violence in Europe's towns and cities, with assaults against Jews and arson attacks on Jewish congregations in France, Sweden and Britain.

Assailants rammed a burning car into the gates of a synagogue in Toulouse, in southwest France, on Monday night. A Jewish congregation in Helsingborg, in southern Sweden, also was attacked Monday night by someone who "broke a window and threw in something that was burning," said police spokesman Leif Nilsson. Neighbors alerted rescue services before the fire took hold.

Someone also started a blaze outside the premises last week. And on Sunday slogans including "murderers ... You broke the cease-fire" and "don't subject Palestine to ethnic cleansing" were daubed on Israel's embassy in Stockholm.

In Denmark, a 27-year-old Dane born in Lebanon of Palestinian parents is alleged to have injured two young Israelis last week, opening fire with a handgun in a shooting that police suspect could be linked to the Gaza crisis.

France has Western Europe's largest Jewish and Muslim communities and a history of anti-Semitic violence flaring when tensions in the Middle East are high. In 2002, some 2,300 Jews left France for Israel because they felt unsafe.

President Nicolas Sarkozy warned in a statement Tuesday that France would not tolerate violence linked to the Gaza crisis. A day earlier, his interior minister said she was concerned about the prospect of contagion and met with the heads of the two main Muslim and Jewish groups and police officials to stress the need to "preserve national unity."

Damage to the synagogue in Toulouse was limited to a blackened gate, and there were no injuries even though a rabbi was giving a course to adults inside, authorities said. They said unlighted gasoline bombs were also found in a car nearby and in the synagogue's yard. A local Jewish leader, Armand Partouche, said he believed the assailants had planned to torch the synagogue, but fled when the building's alarm went off.

"It could have been very, very serious," Partouche said in a telephone interview. "There were people inside; there could have been deaths."

He said Jewish leaders are asking Toulouse authorities for reinforced security for the city's synagogues.

"We really fear that anti-Semitism will spring up again and that the current conflict will be transposed to our beautiful French republic," he said.

In Britain, the Community Security Trust, a Jewish defense group, said it had seen a rise in anti-Semitic incidents since the start of Israel's offensive against Gaza. The group said it had recorded 20-25 incidents across the country in the past week that it believed were connected with Gaza, including an arson attempt on a synagogue in north London on Sunday.

London police are investigating the attack, in which suspects splashed flammable liquid on the door and set it on fire.

Community Security Trust spokesman Mark Gardner said that in another incident last week a gang of 15-20 youths walked along the main street in Golders Green, a largely Jewish neighborhood in north London, shouting "Jew" and "Free Palestine" at passers-by.

"It could get worse," Gardner said. "We tend to see these things happen in waves."

The government in Belgium on Tuesday ordered police in Antwerp and Brussels to be on increased alert after recent pro-Palestinian protests ended in violence and dozens of arrests. Police said burning rags were shoved through the mailbox of a Jewish home in Antwerp last weekend. Damage was limited and no arrests were made.

In the Danish shooting, one Israeli man was shot in the arm and another in the leg as they were selling hair care products in a shopping mall. Eli Ruvio, who owns the company that operated the stands, said his employees have been harassed by Muslim youths since they set up three kiosks in the shopping center in August.

"They kept cursing and shouting at us," Ruvio told The Associated Press. He added that the Muslim youths also threw mud and firecrackers at the employees and spat at them.

Ruvio recalled an episode Dec. 27 when some of the youths shouted "slaughter all the Jews."

"I told my employees not to speak in Hebrew and lie about where they come from, they should say there were from Spain or somewhere else. If people ask you where you are from, never say you're from Israel," he said.

[Undertoad]

You shouldn't feel bad for Hamas though. They're declaring victory. Oh and a larger war against Jews, especially Jewish children, who haven't had anything to do with oppressing them:

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/129242

Hamas spokesman Mahmoud Az-Zahar claimed victory for Hamas on Monday, saying Hamas had succeeded in "destroying Israel's sense of security" with its rocket attacks. Zahar made his proclamation in video footage sent from a secret hideout, where he is taking shelter in order to avoid being targeted in an IAF strike. Other Hamas leaders have gone into hiding as well.

Zahar directed his message to Hamas' troops, and promised them victory over the IDF. "We must be patient until we are victorious, Allah will help us," he said. Hundreds of Hamas terrorists have been killed since the Cast Lead operation began last week, including 100 since the start of Israel's ground operation, and several of the group's senior leaders have been assassinated. Dozens have been taken prisoner as well.

The Hamas leader called to murder Israelis and Jews worldwide, including children. "The Israelis have sentenced their children to death... They have legitimized the killing of their people all over the world," he said. Hamas' platform calls for all Jews to convert to Islam or be killed, based on an Islamic saying (Hadith), and the group has not refrained from targeting children in the past.

[Undertoad]

And BTW

Originally Posted by PH45

So it was in fact Israel who did actually break the ceasefire.

No they didn't. This line in the ICG analysis notices it but fails to notice the implications:

Originally Posted by ICG

Hamas used [the cease-fire] to amass a more powerful and longer-range arsenal;...

I.e., bombs. Missile parts. Many people think they imported them through the smuggling tunnels into Egypt. Some others think they reeled in boxes thrown off of ships off the coast.

No matter how they did it, they obviously did it. 6000 launches don't lie. And no matter how they did it, it was against the rules of the cease-fire.

And one does notice that they are importing missile parts and not, you know, food and medicine and other such goods.

[Undertoad]

Lastly

Meanwhile, sources close to Hamas revealed over the weekend that the movement had "executed" more than 35 Palestinians who were suspected of collaborating with Israel and were being held in various Hamas security installations.

You favor the Pals...? awesome.
-- You hate what Israel has done to them...? granted.
---- You support a terrorist organization ruling them and attacking Israel... destroying Gaza and killing Palestinians to do it...? you've lost the plot.

[DanaC]

I don't recall Pierce ever saying that he supports Hamas.

[Sundae]

Originally Posted by DanaC

I don't recall Pierce ever saying that he supports Hamas.

Out.
At your own request I am here to escort you out of this thread.

Git!

[DanaC]

*looks guilty* yeah. I said that. 'm outta here.

[Ibby]

i dont know who im sick of more, the people railing against the big mean evil israelis, or the people railing against the rabid hateful evil palestinians.

both sides fucking suck, here, guys. both of 'em. im just sick of it.

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

You favor the Pals...? awesome.
-- You hate what Israel has done to them...? granted.
---- You support a terrorist organization ruling them and attacking Israel... destroying Gaza and killing Palestinians to do it...? you've lost the plot.

Hahahaha. Do you really think I repeat "both sides have faults in this" just so I sound unbiased to put forward my biased pro-Palestinians pro-Hamas opinions? If I thought Israel was at sole fault I would have said it and my posts would have been much different.

I have been pointing out the pro-Israeli posts because I disagree with them. This for example...

Originally Posted by Classicman

I agree with you Dana that it must be really difficult to live under those circumstances. Blaming Israel for their plight is not the answer nor is firing rockets at them going to make things better . . . only worse.

There is nothing wrong in terms of facts in this post. But he has made assumptions on what the Palestinians demand and what the actions of Hamas are.

Palestinians do not want to live as dogs. They are currently dependent on humanitarian sources for survival. Classicman is making the claim that Palestinians should be content with this and stop the fighting so they can live their lives as dogs without disturbing the Israelis. [sarcasm]Hell maybe they can learn to be civilized as well like the Israelis if they took up their culture and religion[/sarcasm].

Hamas is not looking for peace until the state of Israel is taken over. Basically, they would like to see the situation switched. They would like to see the Jews living like dogs so the Muslims can live in peace.

Maybe you can understand now why I don't side with either of those groups because neither side is realistic. The Palestinians have shown they will fight before they live as dogs and we know the Jews will fight to the death before they live like dogs again. Both sides are unrealistic and will bring more fighting and death.

I do not go against your views because I hate the Jews, even though I strongly disagree with Zionism, but because it cannot happen. That is why I said there are faults on both sides, neither ideology can lead to a peaceful solution.


If you still side with the belief that the Palestinians should give up their attempts at self-sufficiency so both sides can live in peace, I honestly don't really care. You can believe that a peaceful solution can come out of this and maybe you are right, but I disagree. I do not see a solution coming out of this and hence my views.

Originally Posted by Undertoad

And one does notice that they are importing missile parts and not, you know, food and medicine and other such goods.

Are you serious? Everyone knows that Hamas was importing weapons. It wasn't a secret by any means. If it makes you feel any better, the reason why Hamas agreed to the six month ceasefire was to gain complete control over Gaza. This could only happen if the population was fed (siege) and Hamas was supplied (border crossings). Israel provided neither so Hamas attacked, probably actually as bait. Israel took the bait and now support for Hamas has grown throughout Gaza and even now the West Bank. Many news sources are now criticizing Israel's actions and and foreign leaders are telling Israel to stop. If Hamas gets taken out from their government role by Israel, they will return to an underground movement. It might be possible that Israel will be able to suppress Hamas, but I guess we will have to see.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Classicman

I agree with you Dana that it must be really difficult to live under those circumstances. Blaming Israel for their plight is not the answer nor is firing rockets at them going to make things better . . . only worse.

Pierce:

There is nothing wrong in terms of facts in this post. But he has made assumptions on what the Palestinians demand and what the actions of Hamas are.

Palestinians do not want to live as dogs. They are currently dependent on humanitarian sources for survival. Classicman is making the claim that Palestinians should be content with this and stop the fighting so they can live their lives as dogs without disturbing the Israelis. [sarcasm]Hell maybe they can learn to be civilized as well like the Israelis if they took up their culture and religion[/sarcasm].

Hamas is not looking for peace until the state of Israel is taken over. Basically, they would like to see the situation switched. They would like to see the Jews living like dogs so the Muslims can live in peace.

Maybe you can understand now why I don't side with either of those groups because neither side is realistic. The Palestinians have shown they will fight before they live as dogs and we know the Jews will fight to the death before they live like dogs again. Both sides are unrealistic and will bring more fighting and death.

I do not go against your views because I hate the Jews, even though I strongly disagree with Zionism, but because it cannot happen. That is why I said there are faults on both sides, neither ideology can lead to a peaceful solution.


If you still side with the belief that the Palestinians should give up their attempts at self-sufficiency so both sides can live in peace, I honestly don't really care. You can believe that a peaceful solution can come out of this and maybe you are right, but I disagree. I do not see a solution coming out of this and hence my views.

That is not differenct from what Classic just said. In the end I don't see any specific point you are trying to make on this issue. And there is no way you can really defend Hamas. I don't like what Israel has done with targeting areas with so many civilians but they are going to do as much as they can to cut the head of Hamas off before they are forced, I think via international pressure, to back off. Time will tell.

[classicman]

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

Classicman is making the claim that Palestinians should be content with this and stop the fighting so they can live their lives as dogs without disturbing the Israelis.

I NEVER made that claim, far from it. No one should "live like dogs."

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

Hamas is not looking for peace until the state of Israel is taken over. Basically, they would like to see the situation switched. They would like to see the Jews living like dogs so the Muslims can live in peace.

What's their plan B? Cuz history has proved that one isn't going to work.

[Undertoad]

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

Hahahaha. Do you really think I repeat "both sides have faults in this" just so I sound unbiased to put forward my biased pro-Palestinians pro-Hamas opinions?

Although Dana made it sound like I was directing at you, I wasn't. I was pointing out that you were wrong about the cease-fire earlier but my last message was directed to all.

Israel took the bait and now support for Hamas has grown throughout Gaza and even now the West Bank.

cite

Many news sources are now criticizing Israel's actions

1) European news sources?
1a) They haven't failed to criticize everything Israel has ever done. An Israeli picks his nose in Tel Aviv and the French report it as an offensive against innocent boogers.
2) This is confused, isn't it? News sources report facts, opinion sources criticize. When the news sources criticize we can no longer trust their facts.

If Hamas gets taken out from their government role by Israel, they will return to an underground movement. It might be possible that Israel will be able to suppress Hamas, but I guess we will have to see.

"Hamas has nothing left but rockets"

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

That is not differenct from what Classic just said. In the end I don't see any specific point you are trying to make on this issue. And there is no way you can really defend Hamas. I don't like what Israel has done with targeting areas with so many civilians but they are going to do as much as they can to cut the head of Hamas off before they are forced, I think via international pressure, to back off. Time will tell.

I am making the point that the current view on the situation is flawed because of unrealistic ends. If we took a poll about the solution each dwellar would like to see on this issue, we would most likely see (and tell me if I'm wrong) something like....
"I would like to see the Palestinians stop firing rockets at Israel, which would allow Israel to stop firing rockets at Palestine, which would allow Israel to live in peace and supplies to go into Palestine"

I am saying that most likely can never be a realistic scenario because if that happened, the Palestinians could not be self-sustainable and will dependent on humanitarian supplies for an extremely long time. I have not seen anything to show that Palestinians will settle for that. It is possible, other cultures have settled for less, but as I said I have my large doubts.

Originally Posted by Classicman

I NEVER made that claim, far from it. No one should "live like dogs."

As I said earlier, by agreeing to this solution..."I would like to see the Palestinians stop firing rockets at Israel, which would allow Israel to stop firing rockets at Palestine, which would allow Israel to live in peace and supplies to go into Palestine"...it says the Palestinians should live like dogs. Don't get me wrong, I'm not calling you an asshole or even says you want the Palestinians to live like dogs, but that is how the situation is. It would be similar to saying you would like to keep white privileged and get mad when someone points out that that you support racism (racial privileged is a product of racism).

With the blockade, 80% of Gazans are dependent on foreign aid, I don't have any number without it but it would still be high because the Palestinian economy is completely shot. To be fed food, especially by people that you accuse of taking your land, cutting you off from the rest of the world, and starving you, can be considered living like a dog. If no more rockets were fired from this day forward, the economic situation in Palestine would not be different, it would still be shot and Palestinians would still be fed from outside sources.

So even if you don't believe any person or population should live like dogs, by saying that the rockets should stop and everyone live in peace you will also be saying the Palestinians will need to be fed from outside sources. If you want one, you get the other.

Originally Posted by classicman

What's their plan B? Cuz history has proved that one isn't going to work.

Death? Keep in mind, Hamas could only be temporary. Hamas is looked at in high regards because it is standing up against Israel, not necessarily because of their ideals.

Originally Posted by Undertoad

cite

I could find the quote that said that many Gazans are now becoming more supportive of Hamas but here is two other quotes for Fatah supporters.

The scope of the attacks swayed even some longtime Fatah members – and diehard Hamas opponents. A former interior ministry employee, who abided by Ramallah’s call for PA security to boycott the Hamas government, told Crisis Group that for the first five days of the bombing campaign, he was glad that Hamas was getting its comeuppance: “Israel did it to Fatah. Then Hamas did it to Fatah. Now Israel is doing it to Hamas”. But on the sixth day, with his children inconsolable after their house was heavily damaged in the attack on the justice ministry, he changed his tone: “Israel never did anything this bad to Fatah and neither did Hamas. It’s clear who the real enemy is. This is aggression against the institutions that serve the
people, against what we [the PA] built; it’s all been destroyed”.47 Another self-described former “Hamas hater” too had a change of heart, extolling the “Islamic model” over the “corruption” of the PA and its Arab allies. When asked the reason for this conversion, he replied, “They are destroying mosques. They don’t want children to know about the Koran or their religion”.48

http://www.crisisgroup.org/library/d...ar_in_gaza.pdf

The lack of interest was not, for certain, lack of support for Hamas. Fury is rising here over the war in Gaza, as are support for Hamas and anger with the Palestinian Authority in this city, which has long been the beating heart of opposition to Israeli occupation of the West Bank. Many want the authority and the Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas of the Fatah party, to do more to criticize Israel.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/06/wo...ed=1&ref=world

Originally Posted by Undertoad

1) European news sources?

No, United States.

Originally Posted by Undertoad

2) This is confused, isn't it? News sources report facts, opinion sources criticize. When the news sources criticize we can no longer trust their facts.

I was not talking about open criticism. Sources can display certain facts in certain ways to make the situation seem like it happened a certain way. The facts given are not wrong but there is much more than what is seen.

Originally Posted by Undertoad

"Hamas has nothing left but rockets"

So Islamic papers are saying Hamas won and Jewish papers say Hamas has lost? I don't know the credibilities but what are you trying to point out?