Is there free will in heaven?

[Slartibartfast]

Originally posted by lumberjim
slarti,

forgive my blasphemous tone, but, the current pope writes in a loophole to make catholicism more pallateable, and it holds water with god? isn't that quote in direct opposition to the one mrnoodle posted?
[/size]

Blasphemous? I've heard worse. Carry on.

Someone's going to have to please point out that quote, I can't find it and skimming the six pages of this thread once is far as I can get without my head imploding.

But look, you've got several groups of people to look at:

-those born before Jesus, are they all damned because they could never hear about an event in the future?

-Those that have never heard of Jesus because they are in isolated geographic places.

-unbaptized babies.

-and finally, those that have heard the Good News (TM) but heard it improperly, poorly, or wrongly so they never did get a chance to accept Jesus the 'right way'.

Is it wrong to argue that since God's salvation is universal there must be a valid way for it to be available to EVERYONE somehow?

[lumberjim]

Someone's going to have to please point out that quote,

i put the two right there. your summary of the quote you posted, and mrnoodle's scripture quote.

the two quotes are at odds.

Is it wrong to argue that since God's salvation is universal there must be a valid way for it to be available to EVERYONE somehow?

no.

[Happy Monkey]

Originally posted by Slartibartfast
But it is clear that today, as in the past, many people do not have the opportunity to come to know or accept the Gospel revelation or to enter the Church...

Not only had Gandhi had the opportunity to know about Christianity, he devoted his life to kicking the Christians out of his country! Not because they were Christians, but still.

[Slartibartfast]

Originally posted by Happy Monkey
Not only had Gandhi had the opportunity to know about Christianity, he devoted his life to kicking the Christians out of his country! Not because they were Christians, but still.

Do you mean Gandhi's efforts to free India from the English government? If that is the way you mean, then you are right.

But from what I understand, Gandhi was very tolerant of other religions, and he specifically acted to promote the tolerance between Hindu and Moslem and Christian people in India.

For all I know Gandhi may be frying in hell, but the fact is that I don't know, the issue is between Gandhi and God. The Pope's quote is saying you can't out of hand assume anyone is condemned to hell.

To reconcile my quote with mrnoodles, that salvation is still exclusively through Jesus. The acceptance of him (and the Church) can happen at the moment of death through some unique form of grace granted by God.

It is like those people who live a terrible life but have a deathbed conversion. In a way it looks like a cop-out to say that God would accept such a thing, but give the Big Guy some credit, I bet he can tell a real conversion with full repentance from a fake one.

[smoothmoniker]

Originally posted by lumberjim

you can't rewrite the rules. not even if you happen to be the pope. or do catholics believe that john paul II gets commumicaes from the almighty?

that, in point of fact, is exactly what they believe. That the pope is the living mouthpiece of god, able to make infallible edicts concerning matters of faith and practice.

Including the ability to correct and ammend previous "infallible edicts" concerning matters of faith and practice.
-sm

[Elspode]

Is it wrong for me to consider all of this to be just about too damn funny?

[wolf]

No. I like watching christians argue doctrine too.

It's okay.

Sometimes I help them.

(When I was in college I used to help members of Campus Crusade for Christ experience their first spiritual crisis. It was their own silly fault for knocking on my door ...)

[Slartibartfast]

Originally posted by smoothmoniker


that, in point of fact, is exactly what they believe. That the pope is the living mouthpiece of god, able to make infallible edicts concerning matters of faith and practice.

Including the ability to correct and ammend previous "infallible edicts" concerning matters of faith and practice.
-sm

Actually though if it is infallible, it is infallible forever. You can clarify and interpret all you like, but even the current Pope can't delete previous delcarations.

[smoothmoniker]

well, thus the logical contradiction. and thus a strong reason why I'm not catholic.

Also, I'm anit-funny-hat. so there's that.

-sm

[OnyxCougar]

Originally posted by wolf
No. I like watching christians argue doctrine too.

It's okay.

Sometimes I help them.

(When I was in college I used to help members of Campus Crusade for Christ experience their first spiritual crisis. It was their own silly fault for knocking on my door ...)

It's funny you say that, because MY house is the one the Mormon Elders brought the newbs to when they first arrived in the area. If they still had faith when I was done with them, they had to go for a ride in The Box (TM).

[bluesdave]

Does Heaven really exist at all? I think that as science and medicine develop further, it will be obvious to most clear thinking people, that what we feel, how we think, and what makes us what we are, is the result of the interactions of millions of cells in our bodies, compounded with our day to day experiences in life. I don't think there is anything mystical or spiritual about it - just plain old biology.

Of course, being human, we'll stick doggedly to our beliefs like super glue, regardless of scientific evidence to the contrary.

[mrnoodle]

But look, you've got several groups of people to look at:

-those born before Jesus, are they all damned because they could never hear about an event in the future?

-Those that have never heard of Jesus because they are in isolated geographic places.

-unbaptized babies.

-and finally, those that have heard the Good News (TM) but heard it improperly, poorly, or wrongly so they never did get a chance to accept Jesus the 'right way'.

Romans 2:14-16 -- Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them. This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

Reader's Digest version - if people haven't heard specifically about Jesus, the gospel, etc., they will be judged according to the law that is written on their heart. I interpret it to mean that God programmed you already. Headhunters with plates in their lips will be judged, but not necessarily by whether or not they know who Jesus was.

A question for slart (or anyone else versed in Catholicism), completely unrelated to the rest of this post.... where, in the bible, is any authority given to the pope to make "infallible" doctrine? Why did Jesus have to die if a mere human has the authority to forgive sin? Why do you have to confess to anyone other than God?

At dinner, when Catholics want to ask their fathers to pass the potatoes, do they have to go through their mothers for permission to ask the fathers?

[Slartibartfast]

There are several questions here, let me tackle two right now, and leave the rest for a later moment when I have some time to write and think more.

'Why did Jesus have to die if a mere human has the authority to forgive sin? '

That would be putting the cart before the horse. The mere human alone can't forgive sin, the authority comes from higher up. That priest is acting as a representative and physical human stand in for God.


'Why do you have to confess to anyone other than God?'

Call it good psychology. Why do people spend so much on psychologists and psychiatrists to unload things off their mind? People need to vent and get things out, or else things could stay inside and fester. Confessing to another person all the negative shit you do is a part of addressing it, like the Alcoholic who finally admits to others in AA that he has a problem. Once you admit to a problem, you can deal with it and move on. Confessing to God through just prayer is still too much of an internal dialog, there has to be an external human element to the process.

[Perry5]

Do you know where hell is?

Do you know where the lake of fire is?

Iff i did not know where i was going would you follow me???

[DanaC]

*blinks*