Riddle me this

[jaguar]

I'll grant all your points about social mobility, and take my lumps on using unverified numbers. But we're still left with very basic questions that you still haven't answered. I'll reword them: Why should the federal government increase the percentage of income it takes from you to offset the costs incurred by its inability to wisely use the money it has already soaked you for? Why does "society," with all the grand implications of that term, owe anyone a living? What is the incentive for someone who manages a small business on family income to succeed in that business when they know at some point, they will be punished monetarily for it and that which they have honestly earned will be stolen and Robin-Hooded out to those who did not earn it? Furthermore, if they know this is to happen, what's the point of charitable giving on a personal level?

Ok, let's break this down because you're lumping stuff together.
The key point, other stuff stripped is why does tax increase as income does. As far as I can see, society as a whole has deemed that those with more can afford to contribute more to the collective kitty we all benefit from in the forms of police, roads and floral clocks. Simple as that. Arguably the turrany of the majority in action but that's another point entirely.

Moving on to the other bits and pieces. I don't see the relevancy of efficiency of government spending, see above. As for owing a living, outside those who cannot work or have earnt their pensions, arguably society doesn't. Once again, clearly the majority feel that the severely disabled and the old deserve that, if not, I'm sure the 'boot the cripples onto the street' party would sweep in at the next election. Beyond that, that money doesn't just go into the pockets of the poor, it goes into the roads you drive your merc on, the airport you land the private jet on was probably built with government money and the marina for the yacht probably was as well.

I really don't get you on this small business stuff. Seriously. As I've said enough, I've never heard of someone not starting a business because their tax bracket might change. You don't seem to have a perfect grip of the tax system yourself and if your friend is totally uneducated at finance he should get himself a CPA, it's common bloody sense, would you go into a courtroom without a lawyer if you knew nothing without law? I don't see how moving up a tax bracket would cause him to have a lower income, the only kind of situations where that kind of thing could occur is if his business was so tiny as to fall outside the bottom bracket for things like having to apply sales tax. In which case he can't possibly have been living off it to start with. Should the tax code be more understandable? Same applies to law. The answer is that anything that has to deal with so many situations and complex financial arrangements is never going to be that simple, it's just not possible. There is also a governmental role here, good documentation and advice are important and good tax departments provide them.

From a purely economic standpoint your friend's business clearly wasn't competitive, that's what the market does, weeds out uncompetitive businesses. If you want to get all libertarian on my ass you better accept that. Pride? No-one's making you take out unemployment benefit or the small business loan, hardass. Class war? I'm calling them as I see them. Wanna talk about big money connections? Since '94 when DeLay and other misc. scum swept in they stuck a pretty sweet deal where the money goes to republican lobbyists and in exchange industry gets to write legislation, look at stuff like the failed energy bill for a particularly extreme example. There's wealth at the top of both political pyramids but this particular republican one seems notably scummier than most.

[wolf]

If that's all you're qualified to do, go do it.

Remember the lesson of the useless telephone sanitizers from Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Here in the Megalopolis that parallels the I-95 corridor, you can’t swing a dead cat without hitting a mall, mini-mall or shopping center. But as you head west the stores thin out faster than good radio stations and they’re getting thinner every day.

An Iowa State University study said, in the first decade after Wal-Mart arrived in Iowa, the state lost 555 grocery stores, 298 hardware stores, 293 building supply stores, 161 variety stores, 158 women’s apparel stores, 153 shoe stores, 116 drugstores, and 111 men’s and boy’s apparel stores — all attributed to the Wal-Mart presence. It’s hardly confines to Iowa either, it’s everywhere. Ask Case how many retail jobs are available in her area.

“you don't have to work there. Retail is pretty much an open field. There's always the KMart. Or Target. Or the local stupidmarket chain.”

That is not really true in most areas.

In a 1994 report, the Congressional Research Service warned Congress that communities need to evaluate the significance of any job gains at big-box stores against any loss of jobs due to reduced business at competing retailers. For every two jobs created by Wal-Mart, a community loses three. And those two new jobs usually pay less than the three that were lost. According to government reports, the average pay at Wal-Mart is $8.23 an hour — $2 less than standard retail industry pay.

The result is a lot Wal-Mart workers not being able to afford the health insurance Wal-Mart offers. Even if you can pay, part-time workers, and it does its best to keep as many as possible, part time, must wait two years and cannot add a spouse or children to their coverage. A lot of their people rely on public assistance such as food stamps and health care.

Wal-Mart being the country’s biggest employer leads to bad news for states.
In Arkansas Wal-Mart has more children of employees on publicly funded state health care rolls than any other employer.
In Connecticut taxpayers annually provide $5 million in health care to Wal-Mart workers — more than to workers in any other company in the state.
A 2002 Georgia survey showed that 10,261 of the 166,000 children covered by the state’s taxpayer-funded PeachCare for Kids insurance program had a parent working at Wal-Mart. That’s 14 times the number for the next highest employer.
In 2004 a University of California at Berkeley Labor Center study found that the reliance of Wal-Mart workers on California public assistance programs cost state taxpayers $86 million each year.

Nationally, taxpayers pay an average of $420,750 each year in social services for Wal-Mart associates for each store with about 200 employees.

A bill nearing approval in the Maryland General Assembly would require organizations with more than 10,000 employees to spend at least 8 percent of their payroll on health benefits — or put the money directly into the state’s health program for the poor. The bill doesn’t name Wal-Mart, but with 15,000 employees in the state, it is the only company to which the law would apply.

Montana is tired of footing the bill for big-box stores, too. Its legislature is debating a tax on retailers such as Wal-Mart, Target and Costco. The tax — 1 percent for stores with more than $20 million in annual sales, 1.5 percent for more than $30 million and 2 percent for more than $40 million — is intended to offset welfare costs for the retailers’ low-paid employees.

What’s myth, what’s not

Myth: People without health insurance coverage don’t work.
Fact Seventy-five percent live in families where at least one person works full time. Twenty percent live in families that have two full-time workers.

Myth: Most people without health insurance are poor.
Fact Almost 29 million of the uninsured in 2002 had household earnings of at least $25,000. In 2002 the federal poverty guideline for a family of four was $18, 850.

Myth: It doesn’t really matter if a person doesn’t have health insurance.
Fact About 18,000 Americans die each year because they did not seek early medical attention for a treatable illness, due to lack of insurance.

Myth: Most uninsured children live in single-parent households.
Fact More than half live with both parents.

Myth: People who don’t have health insurance simply don’t want to pay for it.
Fact Seventy-five percent of uninsured adults say the main reason they are not insured is they cannot afford the premiums.
Source: CovertheUninsuredWeek.org

And the $20 Billion Wal-Mart brought in from China last year contributed more than a little to the lack of good jobs paying wages that people could raise a family on.

If that's all you're qualified to do, go do it.

Oh, I see. I've got mine, fuck you.
Well a few million of these people could be trained to be proficient in your, or anybody elses, field and then let the bidding begin for who will work for the least compensation. :p

[Troubleshooter]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

...

Good one Bruce.

I know a lot of college students here work at Walmart and chances are a good number of them will continue to work there when they graduate because it's the best game they know.

It's funny really, they go to school to get a diploma to raise their hiring value and unless they leave town they're still stuck at Walmart because it's the only employer with any turnover. They'll be forever discharging their school loans on what Walmart pays.

[Undertoad]

Don't forget about the evil intarweb taking those retail jobs away.

I bought about $500 online and eBay last two months that would have gone to local places ten years ago. This month I'm planning on spending $3000 in a similar way.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Don't forget about the evil intarweb taking those retail jobs away.

I bought about $500 online and eBay last two months that would have gone to local places ten years ago. This month I'm planning on spending $3000 in a similar way.

You would do that if you could get evrything in a store across the street for the same price with free delivery and a free haircut. :p
I'm talking about normal people that go shopping and you are a self professed anti-socialite.
Truthfully, I do most of my shopping online or by mail also. Always have, but I never claimed to be normal.

I recently read an article about Ireland being the richest nation in Europe.

Boeing sells more planes in Ireland than anywhere else. Leasing companies that rent them to airlines and charter operators.

That's part of being a civilized nation.

You make that sound like it's a good thing. I wouldn't know, having always been an American.

[Trilby]

I recently read an article about Ireland being the richest nation in Europe. They turned it around by offering free college tuition and being friendly to corporations. Dell is their biggest exporter now. I like the free college tuition part. Seems like it works. You've got to give people skills to improve their lot. That's part of being a civilized nation.

[skysidhe]

Where then are all these mom and pop businesses I should be shopping at?? Wallmart isn't the only company that outsources.

Where is that 'made in America ' label?
http://www.usstuff.com/jacket.htm