Bridge Collapse

[DanaC]

Ahh ok. In local politics, most of our politicians have a career and serve as politicians part time. I am a full time student, I hold office in the Council, I wrap those duties around my college work. My colleagues are: a joiner with his own firm; a public sector manager; a retired playwrght; the CEO of a major charity; a lecturer in Teaching; an accountant; a retired lecturer in English; a retired managing director; a taxi-driver; a business owner.

That's the Labour group of Councillors. We all serve as politicians part-time.

[yesman065]

Originally Posted by tw

What does that say about those who support the most liars such as George Jr?

Or those who are trying to get elected to that position now???

[yesman065]

Originally Posted by tw

Meanwhile, what tw posted is contrary to what UT "imagines". Notice that very first paragraph about that school bus (which is what set Yesman065 into a meltdown tirade): A tw has been seen running past the gaukers to start a solution. But tw, UT, and Yesman065 were not there. A responsible and very first question that tw, UT, and Yesman065 should ask (if concerned for children on every school bus) is "why did this happen?" or "what kids are currently at risk and where?"

Still at risk are other school busses: every school bus that was not on that bridge last week and is still carrying kids over other bridges. These bridge failures are predictable. Another question still not answered: how predictable was this failure. Or was the problem identified? Question far more important than unharmed kids on one school bus.

NO The first question to be asked here was how can I get the children on THAT bus taken care of - period. The second one was every other human in that situation and a VERY DISTANT third, at best was how can we do something to protect the children everywhere else who are on school busses at 9:00 at night. Prevention is important, but in a crisis situation ACTIONS speak a lot louder than questions. Identifying the problem and rectifying or preventing it from happening again are not the logical course in an immediate crisis.

After the immediate situation is resolved is the time to look elsewhere for other POTENTIAL problems - dealing with the one that IS happening is paramount.


Aside - tw, I offered you an opportunity to settle our differences - you chose not to - thats fine. Therefore, please do not use me as an example or reference in any of your posts/rants. Whether you feel it is demeaning or derrogotory is irrelevant - everyone else sees it for what it really is. Thanks, have a nice day.

[tw]

Originally Posted by yesman065

NO The first question to be asked here was how can I get the children on THAT bus taken care of - period. The second one was every other human in that situation and a VERY DISTANT third, at best was how can we do something to protect the children everywhere else who are on school busses at 9:00 at night. Prevention is important, but in a crisis situation ACTIONS speak a lot louder than questions.

So how did you get those children off and taken care of - since you worry about things relevant? Those in MN responded accordingly. Why do you associate yourself with them? We could have sucked our thumbs and accomplished just as much. That school bus was their concern - not yours. To put it at 'concern number one' is an emotional response - not logic.

As posted repeatedly, people who must be concerned for those children were at the bridge. That definitely was not Yesman065 who would somehow save children by worrying?

Whereas you were concerned with details you could do nothing about, instead, I was more concerned with the bigger picture - and things I might be able to accomplish.

But again, so as to be clear because assumptions, speculations and implications now routinely become conclusions. Nothing here is an insult or an attack. Demonstrated is exactly how two people see things completely different - exactly as posted in the very first paragraph. For a bonus, demonstrated is how one has an emotional meltdown over a simple logical comparison - to wildly assume an insult where none existed.

Your offer was simple. You stopped posting attacks and the only time I demonstrated what an insult really looks like then stopped - just as I stated. See how easy it works? If you were making so other offer, well, I don't read nor even consider things implied.

Meanwhile, when you become a perfect example for a point, then I will use you accordingly. Again, that is not an insult even though I can already (all but) hear you assuming so. Whereas we outside of MN needed to see the bigger picture (ie a bridge fails every week), instead, Yesman065 worries about kids he can do nothing for (and calls that responsible action?). But again, demonstrated is a perfect comparison of how two people see the exact same event differently. What followed is how one takes personal insult to what was a simple logical comparison.

So what was the larger point? Intended was to demonstrate how some people see only tactical objectives when the strategic objective is looming and requires attention. Demosntrated is how many cannot see the strategic objective - the bigger picture. We never got there. You took insult where none existed.

For us, that single school bus situation was solved the minute that bridge collapsed. What remained was a problem only for people on that bridge. Apparently others (including UT) never grasp that point. The minute that bridge collapsed, our immediate concern was why and what other school busses are at risk. For example, how many bridges of that design exist in your county? Three exist in MN. Did you know that? Do you know those answers that are very much relevant if concerned for the safety of your peers? Why not? Later we look back to see if others whose job were those kids got done.

Maybe you worry about things that cannot be solved. So tell us. How many bridges in your area have the same non-redundant design? Did you ask? Is anyone? Did you even ask if anyone is asking or instead worry about insults that never existed? Or do we simply wait for another school bus to fall?

[tw]

Originally Posted by DanaC

Ahh ok. In local politics, most of our politicians have a career and serve as politicians part time.

Appreciate in America that many politicians don't even spend as much time as lawmakers. Well over 50% of a major (full time) politician's time is spent on fund raising. Numbers once were something like $30,000 every day for 365 days just to get reelected. Where do you find enough generous people every day to give you $30,000? I believe that number may be 10 years old. Of course the number is less for local officials. But still, even some judges must have their hand out daily so as to run for reelection. Clearly those judges are honest? Clearly those politicians are doing their job when so much of every day is fund raising.

Someone walks around daily with his hand out only because he wants to be a public servant? It's hard to believe. Ego explains calling it 'serving' rather than a 'power trip'.

[yesman065]

Originally Posted by tw

So how did you get those children off and taken care of - since you worry about things relevant? Those in MN responded accordingly. Why do you associate yourself with them?

I made no effort to solve any problem. I simply posted a link to which tw chose to attack me in post #8. Because I am a compassionate human.

Originally Posted by tw

That definitely was not Yesman065 who would somehow save children by worrying?

I never said I was going to save anyone by worrying about them. It is NORMAL to be concerned with the welfare of others though, and to express that concern. tw constantly claims that he does not read into others posts or make assumptions about that which may have been implied, reading only the words one has written. Why would tw assume that anyone was trying to save a child when all I did was post a link to an article with absolutely no opinion posted. And yet again an example of how tw reads into others posts that which was not written - Why does tw constantly tend to read into statements things which do not exist. Please refer to the original post in this thread for IRONCLAD proof. Contrastly, tw feels compelled to criticize others if/when they appear to have done the same?

Originally Posted by tw

Whereas you were concerned with details you could do nothing about, instead, I was more concerned with the bigger picture - and things I might be able to accomplish.

INCORRECT - I was not concerned with details at all. I VERY SIMPLY posted a link, nothing more nothing less. I had not intent at that time to solve any problems jump out the door and examine any bridges. tw seems to not be able to grasp this concept even though he has been repeatedly told. Why does tw continue to assume every post is about what HE thinks it is about instead of recognizing that other people post for their own reasons? All claims of superior thought through logical emotionless conclusions would not be made were it not for the underlying emotional need for said change or improvement to take place. One can only assume that posting dispassionately lets tw feel he is somehow greater or better or in some way superior. That tw's posts are intentionally devoid of any feeling has no bearing nor does it lend any credibility to his posts. This is a further example of how tw reads into posts that which is not there. Why tw? Why does tw see things that do not exist? What is it tw has accomplished by attacking yesman? Has tw accomplished anything since this bridge collapsed? has tw taken any action? Take notice - that information is conveniently lacking from tw's posts.

Originally Posted by tw

Your offer was simple. You stopped posting attacks and the only time I demonstrated what an insult really looks like then stopped - just as I stated. See how easy it works?

No, not really, the veil has been removed and the seething ridicule is now out in the open. For example see post # 8 where tw completely unprovoked in any way shape or form reads into a link that which does not exist and attacks yesman without any cause whatsoever. The demeaning TONE, yes there is a tone in the written word, which tw used was completely uncalled for. I made an offer to you for an end of your attacks and my counterattacks so that the cellar would not have to deal with this issue in ever thread where you choose to attack me. Furthermore, I created a thread specifically for tw to express his feelings, if any, attack me if tw wished or to reach a compromise. tw chose none of them - What we are left with is a "cesspool of wanker logic." {tm tw} The offer was apparently not simple enough for tw. tw could not even be man enough to respond to said offer in the appropriate place. Why is that? Why is it that tw is unable or unwilling to act accordingly when an offer for peace was made? Highly illogical for one who purports logical superiority.

Originally Posted by tw

Yesman065 worries about kids he can do nothing for (and calls that responsible action?)

yesman (now you have me referring to myself in the third person) - very strange indeed - will repeat himself again. It seems that tw must believe that if the same incorrect point is repeatedly stated enough times will somehow will it to validity. No it will not. A most serious illogical transgression. No matter how many times an incorrect assumption is repeated it shall forever remain incorrect. yesman posted a link - nothing more, nothing less. yesman had no intention whatsoever at that time to solve any problems nor examine any bridges. tw seems to not be able to grasp this concept even though he has been repeatedly told this. yesman made no effort to imply nor intended to determine a responsible course of action. That is another attempt by tw to make another erroneous claim completely unfounded and without basis. Why tw? Why does tw see things that do not exist?

yesman would like to take this opportunity to state that he was concerned about the traumatic events of that evening and would like to express his concern for the well being of the children on that school bus. Additionally, yesman would like to express his thankfulness to his God that they are all physically ok. Nothing more nothing less. There was never any attempt to examine any other bridges nor did yesman make any claims to have done so.

Originally Posted by tw

The minute that bridge collapsed, our immediate concern was why and what other school buses are at risk. For example, how many bridges of that design exist in your county? Three exist in MN. Did you know that? Do you know those answers that are very much relevant if concerned for the safety of your peers? Why not?

Those questions are not yesman's to ask. yesman is not in the field of engineering, however if yesman were to derive that information it would do yesman little good to know that information. Therefore that displays another illogical question derived on faulty logic which deserves no reply. How much time did tw spend to accrue that useless information? If that information becomes useful what is tw going to do with it? Has tw done anything constructive to address whatever situation tw has determined is in need? What tw, what would yesman or any other reader do with such information? Perhaps yesman could call his congressman and express his concern for the children in his area. Does yesman need that information to do that? yesman thinks not. In fact, yesman has already emailed and called his local representative to express his concerns about bridges in his area. Has tw done the same? Has tw taken any action? tw has offered no solutions, no ideas, in fact all tw has offered is long winded posts questioning others feelings and opinions. Hardly a prudent course of action. What tw, what logic was this course of action you have chosen based upon? tell us what tw has done to increase the safety of the children who ride school buses near tw. Perhaps tw is not concerned enough about the children in tw's area to take action himself? yesman does not know as tw has not offered any constructive information on the subject.

Originally Posted by tw

Maybe you worry about things that cannot be solved. So tell us. How many bridges in your area have the same non-redundant design? Did you ask? Is anyone? Or do we simply wait for another school bus to fall?

OMG - again? My fingers hurt from repeating myself ad nauseum - should you, at this point, still need and answer to these questions than you are beyond help.

In conclusion, yesman recognized a need and took the appropriate action (calling his representatives) whereas tw has simply chosen to attack other posters feelings and opinions - hardly logical nor constructive.

I have repeatedly said that I respect tw's opinions and tw is obviously a person with above average intellect. Attacking others provides no benefit - therefore is a complete waste of energy and cannot derive any positive outcome. Why then does tw find it necessary to attack others when no attack was initially made nor implied?

[xoxoxoBruce]

Sorry, I was distracted... could you repeat that?

[Undertoad]

that's beautiful man

[Urbane Guerrilla]

We just had a locally notorious penile-encephaly case, and toe-tag Democrat, write to the local daily and weekly papers explicitly blaming George W. Bush for the bridge falling down -- and never mind that it's been found rickety since about 1990. The poor bustard tried to sell us on the idea that since GWB is engrossed in fighting a war that other people labored two decades to start with us, the bridges are all rusting out. From this particular crank, whose name I'll refrain from mentioning -- nobody you've heard of anyway, but he writes letters to the editor as a hobby -- this is par for the course. Well, maybe below par.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Originally Posted by DanaC

First off, he cannot tell from forum posts what your interpersonal skills might be in the real world, and secondly, politicians are people and there are those with and those without those interpersonal skills:P

To the contrary: I most certainly can tell what skills he lacks, and I have the entirety of his body of work here on this Cellar to back my view. Allow me to confine myself to just the most prominent example: in all his volubility on various subjects, has he persuaded anyone of his rightness? Are his posts received favorably or with snorts? Does he not resort too often and too easily to "You lie!"? He lacks that faculty to persuade. The only reasonable assumption I can make is that he talks as he writes, behaves as he writes -- that his soul is revealed in his works, especially on those fora concerned with politics, with religion, and with philosophy. These are the places that show your wants, your ideals, your worldview. No question but that they show mine.

This would be true even if I liked the man.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Originally Posted by tw

Meanwhile, what tw posted is . . .

Curiously in the third person. Odd. Not the sort of thing I do.

Meanwhile, UG again takes cheap shots by quoting a UT post that contradicts what tw posted. Well that is logical and predictable since UG's routinely posts personal attacks on tw (and others); since UG has been caught repeatedly lying by tw. So where are all those fallen dominos in SE Asia?

North Vietnam, Laos, South Vietnam, and Cambodia, in approximately the order of their fall. You could count Burma in there somewhere if you like. I've told you this more than once, and more than once you ignore these data -- ignoring data is not honesty. The contiguous dominoes that didn't fall were Thailand and Malaysia, to their great good fortune. It wasn't all luck, but it had luckiness to it.

And post #76 is not a contradiction of any sort, but a satire. If you don't want to scroll back that far, see post #99, which quotes 76 in full.

Why UG is even posting is his need to post personal attacks on one who repeatedly exposes his lies.

I do not lie even to you, tw, and the whole Cellar knows it -- you are the one exception. I'm not here to steer you wrong, either -- see previous.

[DanaC]

Appreciate in America that many politicians don't even spend as much time as lawmakers. Well over 50% of a major (full time) politician's time is spent on fund raising. Numbers once were something like $30,000 every day for 365 days just to get reelected. Where do you find enough generous people every day to give you $30,000? I believe that number may be 10 years old. Of course the number is less for local officials. But still, even some judges must have their hand out daily so as to run for reelection.

In local politics, whilst there is fund raising (we do need funds to pay for elections) it's much smaller scale. There is a limit on what a person/party can spend during the election period. You can spend what you like in the interrim, though most local politicians don't spend much until quite near election time.

By a limit, I mean that once the election is 'called' so roughly four weeks before polling day, no local government candidate can spend more than: £600 plus .05p per registered voter. For my ward that worked out at approximately £1010. During my election my expenses came in at £940. In order to calculate election expenditure, one has to take account of everything. If someone lends you space in their office to use a base of ops, you must work out what an acceptable market rate wuold be for that amount of space and utilities and mark that within your expenditure as a Notional expense. Every printed leaflet, every stamp, every phone call which incurs a charge, election insurance etc etc. Services paid for, services given free, all have to be accounted for as expense and mustn't amount to more than stated limit. The only 'expense' that doesn't count, is the market value of volunteer labour. So, you really appreciate your volunteers. When you are counting every stamp, you want to hand deliver as much as possible ;P

[DanaC]

To the contrary: I most certainly can tell what skills he lacks, and I have the entirety of his body of work here on this Cellar to back my view. Allow me to confine myself to just the most prominent example: in all his volubility on various subjects, has he persuaded anyone of his rightness? Are his posts received favorably or with snorts? Does he not resort too often and too easily to "You lie!"? He lacks that faculty to persuade. The only reasonable assumption I can make is that he talks as he writes, behaves as he writes -- that his soul is revealed in his works, especially on those fora concerned with politics, with religion, and with philosophy. These are the places that show your wants, your ideals, your worldview. No question but that they show mine.

Unlike yourself of course who routinely persuades others to your view and whose posts are never derided.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by DanaC

Every printed leaflet, every stamp, every phone call which incurs a charge, election insurance etc etc.

Election insurance? Does that support you until you can try again? Or buy you a bottle of booze to drown your sorrows?

[richlevy]

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

North Vietnam, Laos, South Vietnam, and Cambodia, in approximately the order of their fall. You could count Burma in there somewhere if you like.

I don't think lumping in a right-wing military Junta with communists would be a good idea.

BTW, the most damning statement I've ever seen of any government is in the CIA fact book on Burma.

the judiciary is not independent of the executive