View on the recent Gaza/Israel stikes - Page 8

Undertoad · 01-07-2009, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

I could find the quote that said that many Gazans are now becoming more supportive of Hamas but here is two other quotes for Fatah supporters.

I find my little Pal girl video more compelling. But at that time you said If you could find a report of the majority of Gazans thinking that Hamas is at fault, then it would devastate my post, but not one out of the millions that live in Gaza.

Quote:

I was not talking about open criticism. Sources can display certain facts in certain ways to make the situation seem like it happened a certain way. The facts given are not wrong but there is much more than what is seen.

Yeeeah. They're taught in Journalism school never to do this, and then, when asked why they have the cajones to do this, they point to their gravitas because they went to J-school.

You're not supposed to notice. But you're too smart. Now apply critical thinking skills to the problem. When paying attention to the "secondary message" communicated as news, do you get closer to the truth, or further from the truth?

It's a classic SAT question. If the "news" reports, for five days in a row, The Administration today again denied that there had ever been waterboarding used at Guantanamo Bay, do you believe A) There probably was waterboarding at Guantanamo, B) There probably was not waterboarding at Guantanamo, or C) Not enough information to determine?

(Answer: C of course. But it's also a trick question. The people who already believe A will find that the reports confirm their truth. The people who already believe B will find that the reports confirm their truth as well. The same report will be heard as liberal if aired on MSNBC, and conservative if aired on Fox.)

Quote:

So Islamic papers are saying Hamas won and Jewish papers say Hamas has lost? I don't know the credibilities but what are you trying to point out?

Who to believe. Who to believe. It's a toughie innit.

piercehawkeye45 · 01-07-2009, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undertoad

I find my little Pal girl video more compelling. But at that time you said If you could find a report of the majority of Gazans thinking that Hamas is at fault, then it would devastate my post, but not one out of the millions that live in Gaza.

I made a mistake on my post. I should have wrote, I couldn't find the quote that said that many Gazans are now becoming more supportive of Hamas but here is two other quotes for Fatah supporters.

The quote I couldn't find is somewhere in a 28 page report but I did post a similar quote in the post where I argued against your video. The quote I wanted did actually imply majority while this one does not.

Quote:

“May God exterminate Hamas!” she screamed, in a curse rarely heard these days. In this conflict, many Palestinians praise Hamas as resisters

The first quote was from an individual, I am aware, but not the second. Stats are not available to determine how large this group is, but there is a group and it seems to have grown since the start of the bombings, or at least they have become more vocal.

Quote:

Fury is rising here [West Bank] over the war in Gaza, as are support for Hamas and anger with the Palestinian Authority in this city

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undertoad

do you get closer to the truth, or further from the truth?

Alright, I'll go with you on this. Not to patronize your statement but this is off from my original point. I was saying that popular opinion from around the world has shifted away from Israel on this event. Many disagree with their latest actions. I won't use the word criticize though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by classicman

I disagree. Your conclusion of
"Hamas stops firing rockets = Palestinians should live like dogs"
is quite a stretch.

I will show the a proof (like a mathematical proof) of how I got there. If you disagree with any part, state it and show me evidence of why you believe the contrary.

1. Hamas/other Palestinian resistant groups stops firing rockets indefinitely
2. Israel stops firing rockets indefinitely
3. Two-State solution appears on current boundaries
4. Palestine's economy not strong enough, has the infrastructure, size, funding, etc to become self-sufficient.
5a. Palestine becomes dependent on foreign aid
5b. Maybe Israel/other Arab countries will open borders for some and they become second class citizens
6. Living like dogs statement

Obviously saying that "Hamas should stop firing rockets" does not mean you wish to see the Palestinians living that way but I am saying if a peace happens in this current scenario, that is what will end up happening. That is why many Palestinians don't want peace at this moment.

As I've said numerous times, things do change and maybe I will be wrong, but looking at the current scenario that proof is strong and will most likely hold.

xoxoxoBruce · 01-07-2009, 04:03 PM

1. Hamas/other Palestinian resistant groups stops firing rockets indefinitely
2. Israel stops firing rockets indefinitely
3. Two-State solution appears on current boundaries
4. Palestine's economy not strong enough, has the infrastructure, size, funding, etc to become self-sufficient.
5. Palestine becomes dependent on foreign aid
6. While living on foreign aid, without war draining attention and resources, turn to rebuilding their economy and become self sufficient.

Urbane Guerrilla · 01-07-2009, 10:28 PM

As long as the irresponsible sort of Palestinian keeps crying "Victim! Victim! Victim!" while his every behavior, day in and day out, year in and year out, for decades on end, says "Perp! Perp! Perp!" he has no hope of ever having the moral ascendancy.

The assholes attach more importance to their feud with the Jews than to living a good life, or to recuperating their losses! The surrounding countries have pursued only destructive policies, believing apparently that they can conquer the Israelis. They can't; the Israelis simply are not going to leave no matter what the surrounding Arab nations try. They don't even want to take over Jordan -- the other two thirds of the British Mandate.

Mass migrations, displacing the original inhabitants from a given place, have occurred all through history. There is absolutely nothing out of the ordinary about this one. The Palestinians have been carefully prevented from finding new homes or new fortunes -- as if they had much fortune before the twentieth century.

A lot of these symptoms, these dysfunctional wars, go back in their origin to the Ottoman Empire, which in its long span was hardly a model of social enlightenment, and which did not encourage creative thinking from the provinces. Nobody paid much attention at all to that swatch of Eastern Mediterranean littoral until a bunch of Jews moved in and made a success of the place.

classicman · 01-08-2009, 07:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

The Palestinians have been carefully prevented from finding new homes or new fortunes --

There you have it then. That, if correct, is a HUGE part of the problem.

OnyxCougar · 01-08-2009, 03:04 PM

This may be an ignorant question, but

Why do the Palistinians have to live like dogs once all the rockets have stopped? Why can't they live off aid while they rebuild (or establish) their infrastructure, economy and government?

...(Just thought of this) because to Israel, letting them do that puts them in a better position to really hurt Israelis and rearm and all that stuff, since they are known to be deal breakers.

So it is in Israel's best interest not to let them do that, based upon past history.

Sheesh. That just crystallized a whole bunch for me.

piercehawkeye45 · 01-08-2009, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

Why do the Palistinians have to live like dogs once all the rockets have stopped? Why can't they live off aid while they rebuild (or establish) their infrastructure, economy and government?

Hmmmm.....I actually have never have thought of that before. Maybe you can go over there and establish their infrastructure, economy, and government for them. But if I were you I would try to get some experience, might want to start in Africa, South America, Central Asia, or any other third world country. I'm sure there's will be just as easy.

Hint....there might be a difference on why Israel was able to be successful and Palestine will not.

freshnesschronic · 01-09-2009, 04:56 AM

I hope they all chill out over there....this could be the real deal, a la WWIII....

Undertoad · 01-09-2009, 12:28 PM

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/09/wo...er=rss&emc=rss

Quote:

A car arrived with more patients. One was a 21-year-old man with shrapnel in his left leg who demanded quick treatment. He turned out to be a militant with Islamic Jihad. He was smiling a big smile.

“Hurry, I must get back so I can keep fighting,” he told the doctors.

He was told that there were more serious cases than his, that he needed to wait. But he insisted. “We are fighting the Israelis,” he said. “When we fire we run, but they hit back so fast. We run into the houses to get away.” He continued smiling.

“Why are you so happy?” this reporter asked. “Look around you.”

A girl who looked about 18 screamed as a surgeon removed shrapnel from her leg. An elderly man was soaked in blood. A baby a few weeks old and slightly wounded looked around helplessly. A man lay with parts of his brain coming out. His family wailed at his side.

“Don’t you see that these people are hurting?” the militant was asked.

“But I am from the people, too,” he said, his smile incandescent. “They lost their loved ones as martyrs. They should be happy. I want to be a martyr, too.”

piercehawkeye45 · 01-09-2009, 03:01 PM

So now we are posting extreme individual incidents to make them seem to represent the majority. I like that game. My turn.

Quote:

At least 30 people were killed in the Zeitoun district of Gaza after Israeli troops repeatedly shelled a house to which more than 100 Palestinians had been evacuated by the Israeli military, the UN said today.

The UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA), said in a report it was "one of the gravest incidents since the beginning of operations" against Hamas militants in Gaza by the Israeli military on 27 December.

OCHA said the incident took place on 4 January, a day after Israel began its ground offensive in Gaza. According to testimonies gathered by the UN, Israeli soldiers evacuated about 110 Palestinians to a single-storey house in Zeitoun, south-east Gaza. The evacuees were instructed to stay indoors for their safety but 24 hours later the Israeli army shelled the house. About half the Palestinians sheltering in the house were children, OCHA said. The report also complains that the Israeli Defence Force prevented medical teams from entering the area to evacuate the wounded.

The OCHA report does not accuse Israel of a deliberate act but calls for an investigation. Responding to the report, an Israeli military spokeswoman, Avital Leibovich, told AFP news agency: "From initial checking, we don't have knowledge of this incident. We started an inquiry but we still don't know about it."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009...acuees-zeitoun

Hamas did it! Hamas did it! Hamas did it!

P.S. I did read your article on the other thread and I assume that is why you posted that quote. You posted a quote from an extreme individual who one, really doesn't represent the majority and two, said "they should be happy too", meaning that they were not at the moment. I agree that the two cultures are fundamentally different but you took that to the extreme.

Flint · 01-09-2009, 03:13 PM

If that's the game (if), then I understand the projected majority that would be represented by Undertoad's example; but what is the projected majority that piercehawkeye45's example is supposed to represent? Walk me through that one, I don't get it.

Shawnee123 · 01-09-2009, 03:14 PM

yer face

piercehawkeye45 · 01-09-2009, 03:31 PM

That incident is being investigated, possibly for being a war crime. But, that incident is a minority. The Israelis are not systematically rounding up Palestinians, mainly children, into "safe" houses, telling them not leave, and then later shelling the houses.

It is the same as war crimes that happened in Vietnam by the United States, rare and not representative of the majority of the US Army.

Undertoad · 01-09-2009, 03:35 PM

Quote:

I agree that the two cultures are fundamentally different but The New York Times took that to the extreme on their front page.

FTFY

Flint · 01-09-2009, 03:36 PM

So, because your example is not representative, that makes Undertoad's example also not representative?

01-07-2009, 04:03 PM	#3
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	1. Hamas/other Palestinian resistant groups stops firing rockets indefinitely 2. Israel stops firing rockets indefinitely 3. Two-State solution appears on current boundaries 4. Palestine's economy not strong enough, has the infrastructure, size, funding, etc to become self-sufficient. 5. Palestine becomes dependent on foreign aid 6. While living on foreign aid, without war draining attention and resources, turn to rebuilding their economy and become self sufficient. __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

01-07-2009, 10:28 PM	#4
Urbane Guerrilla Person who doesn't update the user title Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Southern California Posts: 6,674	As long as the irresponsible sort of Palestinian keeps crying "Victim! Victim! Victim!" while his every behavior, day in and day out, year in and year out, for decades on end, says "Perp! Perp! Perp!" he has no hope of ever having the moral ascendancy. The assholes attach more importance to their feud with the Jews than to living a good life, or to recuperating their losses! The surrounding countries have pursued only destructive policies, believing apparently that they can conquer the Israelis. They can't; the Israelis simply are not going to leave no matter what the surrounding Arab nations try. They don't even want to take over Jordan -- the other two thirds of the British Mandate. Mass migrations, displacing the original inhabitants from a given place, have occurred all through history. There is absolutely nothing out of the ordinary about this one. The Palestinians have been carefully prevented from finding new homes or new fortunes -- as if they had much fortune before the twentieth century. A lot of these symptoms, these dysfunctional wars, go back in their origin to the Ottoman Empire, which in its long span was hardly a model of social enlightenment, and which did not encourage creative thinking from the provinces. Nobody paid much attention at all to that swatch of Eastern Mediterranean littoral until a bunch of Jews moved in and made a success of the place. __________________ Wanna stop school shootings? End Gun-Free Zones, of course. Last edited by Urbane Guerrilla; 01-07-2009 at 10:33 PM.

01-08-2009, 03:04 PM	#6
OnyxCougar Junior Master Dwellar Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Kingdom of Atlantia Posts: 2,979	This may be an ignorant question, but Why do the Palistinians have to live like dogs once all the rockets have stopped? Why can't they live off aid while they rebuild (or establish) their infrastructure, economy and government? ...(Just thought of this) because to Israel, letting them do that puts them in a better position to really hurt Israelis and rearm and all that stuff, since they are known to be deal breakers. So it is in Israel's best interest not to let them do that, based upon past history. Sheesh. That just crystallized a whole bunch for me. __________________ Impotentes defendere libertatem non possunt. "Repetition does not transform a lie into a truth." ~Franklin D. Roosevelt

01-09-2009, 03:13 PM	#11
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	If that's the game (if), then I understand the projected majority that would be represented by Undertoad's example; but what is the projected majority that piercehawkeye45's example is supposed to represent? Walk me through that one, I don't get it. __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio**

01-09-2009, 03:14 PM	#12
Shawnee123 Why, you're a regular Alfred E Einstein, ain't ya? Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 21,206	yer face __________________ A word to the wise ain't necessary - it's the stupid ones who need the advice. --Bill Cosby

01-09-2009, 04:56 AM	#8
freshnesschronic Professor Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 1,555	I hope they all chill out over there....this could be the real deal, a la WWIII....

01-09-2009, 03:31 PM	#13
piercehawkeye45 Franklin Pierce Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,695	That incident is being investigated, possibly for being a war crime. But, that incident is a minority. The Israelis are not systematically rounding up Palestinians, mainly children, into "safe" houses, telling them not leave, and then later shelling the houses. It is the same as war crimes that happened in Vietnam by the United States, rare and not representative of the majority of the US Army. __________________ I like my perspectives like I like my baseball caps: one size fits all.

01-09-2009, 03:36 PM	#15
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	So, because your example is not representative, that makes Undertoad's example also not representative? __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio**

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